For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?

[Brian2]

Jehovah is perfect in every way,has no equal . every thing he would do would also be perfect. but that could not happen using imperfect materials . a lesser god (IE Jesus) given the authority to do the work Jehovah God wanted done could

So the universe and humans and angels have imperfections because the Son created them and not the Father?
To me that sounds like you are saying that the thing that the Father created directly----the Son----was not actually perfect and ended up making mistakes when He, the Son, created stuff.

 

[cataway]

So the universe and humans and angels have imperfections because the Son created them and not the Father?
To me that sounds like you are saying that the thing that the Father created directly----the Son----was not actually perfect and ended up making mistakes when He, the Son, created stuff.

how many perfect things in the nature of things do you know ?

 

[Brian2]

how many perfect things in the nature of things do you know ?

God said that the whole of the creation was very good.
To me this means that it was just what God wanted even if not perfect as some might count perfection.
I however do know that the nature of the Son is perfect because it is the exact image of the nature of God.

 

[cataway]

God said that the whole of the creation was very good.
To me this means that it was just what God wanted even if not perfect as some might count perfection.
I however do know that the nature of the Son is perfect because it is the exact image of the nature of God.

this "good" or even "very good'' is a misnomer . Jesus was called a good teacher, perhaps to flatter him .Jesus said''
19 .... “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God. '' yes Jesus was good yet he paled in comparison to his father, and he knew it.

 

[Brian2]

this "good" or even "very good'' is a misnomer . Jesus was called a good teacher, perhaps to flatter him .Jesus said''
19 .... “Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except one, God. '' yes Jesus was good yet he paled in comparison to his father, and he knew it.

God was not calling the creation morally good but nevertheless good, and imo this means just what God wanted. I don't think the Son made any mistakes in what was created, do you?
But Jesus being good is another question, and I see that as meaning morally good.
We are told that Jesus is exactly like the Father.
Would this mean that Jesus is as good as the Father?

 

[wellwisher]

I used to be a trinity believer myself. When i found out Jesus was not Yhwh it felt like my foundation had crumbled beneath me. What held me together was knowing Jesus was still Jesus. He still lived a perfect human life and gave it for mankind. He was still Gods son. He was still king of Gods Kingdom(until the end comes). Everything was still created through him.

The real bonus of learning the truth was it was the 1st time i could worship God properly and serve Him properly. It has only gotten better since. My whole life changed like never before. It was the first time i learned what Gods will was and therefore could do it. I finally knew and felt that freedom Jesus spoke of. True freedom.

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

One easy way to understand the trinity is with the modern concert of a multi-core processor for a computer. It is one processor with many internal cores. The processor can use single cores for different tasks, or all the cores at the same time, for one huge task. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are like the three cores of God; CPU.

Judeo-Christianity is partly about the Father core and partly about the Son core, working a common cause. When they work on the same task, there is a blurring of the lines between them, since this is more efficient.

We are in interesting times where science and technology is starting to create things that make their ancient mind much easier to see. Today we have AI, while back then they had the spirit of the oracles. Neither are material in nature but more like information and imagination based.

People walking with cells phones and ear buds. would be like the crazy person of the past, speaking to spirits since nobody else can see or hear the other person. Today we use tech to creates this affect. whereas before they used the CPU of the unconscious brain.

 

[seekandfind]

I believe it would make Jesus just another prophet among many and unable to save me and it would mean that God doesn't care about me. That would be devastating.

It wouldnt make him just another prophet. He had a miraculous conception; he is Gods son!
"Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” Mt 3:17

He lived a life without sin. You do realise its the life without sin that paid the price, right? A perfect balance of justice, an eye for eye, a life for a life....
"For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19

Jesus left heaven to die for mankind. He wasnt just another prophet.

 

[Kathryn]

My world doesn't come unraveled over anything.

 

[seekandfind]

One easy way to understand the trinity is with the modern concert of a multi-core processor for a computer. It is one processor with many internal cores. The processor can use single cores for different tasks, or all the cores at the same time, for one huge task. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are like the three cores of God; CPU.

Judeo-Christianity is partly about the Father core and partly about the Son core, working a common cause. When they work on the same task, there is a blurring of the lines between them, since this is more efficient.

We are in interesting times where science and technology is starting to create things that make their ancient mind much easier to see. Today we have AI, while back then they had the spirit of the oracles. Neither are material in nature but more like information and imagination based.

People walking with cells phones and ear buds. would be like the crazy person of the past, speaking to spirits since nobody else can see or hear the other person. Today we use tech to creates this affect. whereas before they used the CPU of the unconscious brain.

While your illustration may be a good visual of the trinity it doesnt make the trinity true. The scriptures dont teach the trinity, mans traditions do. You can research the trinty origin.

To show how desperate men were to make the trinity doctrine notice this verse.
Look at how simple the verse reads at John 5:7 and then notice what the King James Version attempted....

"For there are three witness bearers:"

Now KJV...

• [COLOR=var(--du-color--textDefault, #292929)]"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

[/COLOR]

 

[Jimmy]

How does that work?
WHO CREATED if ‘God let Jesus take part’?

Without Jesus existence could not manifest imo. So he’s kind of important.

 

[cataway]

proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,+
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+
23 From ancient times* I was installed,+
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.+

there is only one person these verses are speaking of = Jesus

speaking of Jesus Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+ 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,+ whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him+ and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,+ and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

 

[Brian2]

proverbs 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,+
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+
23 From ancient times* I was installed,+
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.+

there is only one person these verses are speaking of = Jesus

Maybe it is speaking about Jesus, maybe not. There are arguments both ways.
Some translations of Prov 8:22 make it look like Wisdom is a created being and others make it look like Wisdom has always been.
The New World Translation of course goes with the first option.

speaking of Jesus Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+ 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,+ whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him+ and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,+ and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

This is another place where the New World Translation has made the translation lean towards their doctrinal ideas.
It has added the word "other" 4 times when it does not appear in the Greek, and that changes the meaning of the passage.
The NWT used to have "other" in brackets to show that it was not a part of the text. Now they have removed the brackets and in that way appear to be deceiving some people by making it look to be a part of the Greek text.

 

[cataway]

Maybe it is speaking about Jesus, maybe not. There are arguments both ways.
Some translations of Prov 8:22 make it look like Wisdom is a created being and others make it look like Wisdom has always been.
The New World Translation of course goes with the first option.



This is another place where the New World Translation has made the translation lean towards their doctrinal ideas.
It has added the word "other" 4 times when it does not appear in the Greek, and that changes the meaning of the passage.
The NWT used to have "other" in brackets to show that it was not a part of the text. Now they have removed the brackets and in that way appear to be deceiving some people by making it look to be a part of the Greek text.

i'm not surprised that you poo poo scripture after all it gos against your doctrinal ideas

 

[Jimmy]

People who believe in the trinity do not think Jesus is God in my opinion, they never have

 

[Brian2]

i'm not surprised that you poo poo scripture after all it gos against your doctrinal ideas

I don't mind if people believe the personification of Wisdom in Proverbs is the pre human Jesus. Many trinitarians believe that.
I do point out that this does not mean that He was created however.
I also point out that since scripture tells us that YHWH stretched out the heavens and spread out the earth alone, that means that anyone who was with Him doing those things is YHWH in the trinitarian sense.

When it comes to Col 1:15-17, who is poo pooing scripture, me or those who translate it deceptively.

 

[seekandfind]

This is another place where the New World Translation has made the translation lean towards their doctrinal ideas.
It has added the word "other" 4 times when it does not appear in the Greek, and that changes the meaning of the passage.
The NWT used to have "other" in brackets to show that it was not a part of the text. Now they have removed the brackets and in that way appear to be deceiving some people by making it look to be a part of the Greek text.

The latest version is made easier to read. "Other" is in there for context as today there are many teachings about who Jesus is and this clarifies it. Many words needed to be added throughout the scriptures when converting to English as they arent complete sentences in English when you only use the Greek and Hebrew words.

 

[Brian2]

The latest version is made easier to read. "Other" is in there for context as today there are many teachings about who Jesus is and this clarifies it. Many words needed to be added throughout the scriptures when converting to English as they arent complete sentences in English when you only use the Greek and Hebrew words.

The use of "other" in brackets in Col 1:15-17 did the job of saying what the Watch Tower wanted it to mean.
The use of "other" without brackets makes it look as if "other" is a part of the text and is deceiving.
The use of "other" would be OK if it did not alter the meaning, but it does alter the plain meaning and so grammatically it should not have been added to the text,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 4 times.
Col 1: 15-17 have complete sentences and do not need "other" for them to make sense,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but do need "other" in order to make them say what the WT wants them to say.

 

[seekandfind]

The use of "other" in brackets in Col 1:15-17 did the job of saying what the Watch Tower wanted it to mean.
The use of "other" without brackets makes it look as if "other" is a part of the text and is deceiving.
The use of "other" would be OK if it did not alter the meaning, but it does alter the plain meaning and so grammatically it should not have been added to the text,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 4 times.
Col 1: 15-17 have complete sentences and do not need "other" for them to make sense,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but do need "other" in order to make them say what the WT wants them to say.

Like i said, its for clarity. Today people falsley believe Jesus is equal to God.

 

[Brian2]

Like i said, its for clarity. Today people falsley believe Jesus is equal to God.

People have believed that Jesus meant that He is equal to God since He walked the earth and called Himself the Son of God.
This is what the early church believed about Jesus and we don't find members of the early church saying that Jesus was created.
That is something that JWs say however, and have done it by changing the Bible to make it look that way.
You do see that "all other things were created through Him" has a different meaning than "all things were created through Him" don't you?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

IMHO Jehovah could not have created all things with out the Son having a part in creation

In what way is God inferior to Jesus to have been unable to create all things.?
That makes no sense at all.

The Trinity concept is a worm hole in which reason descends to nonsense.

Unitarianism denies neither Jesus nor The Holy Spirit. Nor does it give them the status of gods.
They are the servants of God, inso far as they do his will.