Did not answer the question.
your standard of good is rather nebulous.
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For trinity believers: Does your world come unravelled if Jesus is not God,but ONLY Gods Son?
- Thread starter seekandfind
- Start date
your standard of good is rather nebulous.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Who was Jesus praying to when on the cross?
ElishaElijah
Return
God the Son prayed to God the Father on the Cross
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are free to believe what you believe and I will believe what I believe, and I see no reason to cover the same ground we have covered for years on end. As @CG Didymus always says, either Christianity is wrong or the Baha'i Faith is wrong, as we cannot both be right. So, one of us is wrong. You think it is me and I think it is you. Why argue about it, unless you are willing to consider that you might be wrong? I am not willing to consider that since I am 100% certain that the Baha'i Faith is true, and that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ. Of that I have no doubt, and all these years of discussing it with Christians have only further confirmed that in my mind since they have forced me to refer to the Bible to confirm my beliefs.There is no logical reason to think that John 14, 15 and 16 were referring to anything other than the promised Holy Spirit which came at Pentecost.
Logic tells us, when I compare verses, that the Holy Spirit is the Advocate whom Jesus promised to His disciples to teach them and remind them what Jesus had said to them.
John 14:25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Then we see that the Advocate is the Spirit of Truth whom Jesus sends to His disciples.
John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
Then we can see again that the Spirit of Truth is promised to Jesus disciples, to guide them into all the truth.
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Here again the Spirit of Truth is promised to Jesus disciples and He said it lives with them and will be in them.
John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.
The promise was never a once and for all time promise. The promise was for all Christians.
So you quote the same verses that I have quoted and cannot see what they tell us.
Then when you quote the prophecy of Joel you do not quote what Peter said about it. He was telling to people that he and his Spirit filled friends were not drunk but that it was the fulfilment of part of the prophecy of Joel,,,,,,,,,,, and the he quoted the prophecy.
Acts 2:12 And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
Peter’s Sermon at Pentecost
14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that ceveryone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
You want the time of Baha'u'llah to be the last days but the Bible indicates that the last days started with Jesus and end when Jesus returns. For a start we read the above prophecy of Joel and that it would happen in the last days.
Other passages in the New Testament also tell us that the last days started in Jesus day, as this quote from this site tells us. Denying it is no more than showing the fruit of the false prophet and denying that the Bible is speaking the truth.
“In these last days He [God] has spoken [finally, once for all] to us by his Son” (Heb. 1:2), and “He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake” (1 Pet. 1:20).The Last Days | Precept Austin
www.preceptaustin.org
Broadly speaking, therefore, the last days include the earthly life and ministry of Jesus Christ, the entire history of the church to the present, as well as all events prophesied in the Scriptures that are still unfulfilled. Even near the beginning of the church's history John pointed out that the “many antichrists [who] have come” are evidence that this “is the last hour” (1 John 2:18).
Jesus is never going to return to earth. I knew that already since I know that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, but the Bible confirmed my belief.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more
No, I like to quote passages that show us that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ and even highlight parts that show us that.
It does not matter to me if you believe it since the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone except himself.
“Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”
Hopefully you can read in between the lines.
“Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self” is related to Judgment Day
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know how many there are, but suffice to say that Jesus did not fulfill any of the prophecies that refer to the return of Christ, what will happen when He returns and after that, during the Messianic Age.
'And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven' is not Jesus saying you will see ME coming on the clouds of heaven. How is that possible, when Jesus unequivocally said the following?
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more
I covered that on this thread:
Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
I have my own interpretation of that verse.
Son of man coming with the clouds means that the return of Christ will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.
In other words, the judgment of most people was clouded when Christ returned and it is still clouded for most people.
One thing that clouds the judgment of Christians is their desire for the same Jesus to return to earth.
I am not rejecting anything you quote, I simply disagree with your interpretation of it.
How do you explain these verses? Was Jesus lying when He said the following?
the world seeth me no more;
I am no more in the world,
ye see me no more
Either that, or those verses mean what they say, which means that Jesus is not returning to this world.
ElishaElijah
Return
The guy you’re following is dead and buried, you have a mystical view of God and basically twist scripture to match your belief. That’s backwards, none of the 2 false prophets and false messengers are even mentioned in the Scriptures by name
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I do not have to be baptized with water. That is only a Christian belief, one I do not ascribe to.
“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
I don't need to be baptized. That is only a symbol and it is not relevant for me since I am not a Christian.
I received the Holy Spirit as a gift from God. I received it through the recognition of Baha'u'llah, who brought the Holy Spirit to the world.
“Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation. The memory of this night will never be forgotten. May it never be effaced by the passage of time, and may its mention linger for ever on the lips of men.”
(Baha'u'llah, quoted by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)
The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is only one Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God.
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in believers, it is directly connected to their soul.
Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.
No, Christ does not live in me. Christ does not live in anyone's body.
Christ only lives in our hearts if we are close to Him. Christ lives in my heart because I am close to Him.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus is also dead. After He died He ascended to Heaven.
“He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 133
Jesus and Baha'u'llah are now at the right hand of God.
Baha'u'llah was mentioned by name numerous times in the Old Testament. His name in Arabic means Glory of God.
Bahāʾ Allāh, (Arabic: “Glory of God”) (born November 12, 1817, Tehrān, Iran—died May 29, 1892, Acre, Palestine [now ʿAkko, Israel]), founder of the Bahāʾī Faith upon his claim to be the manifestation of the unknowable God. Mīrzā Ḥosayn was a member of the Shīʿite branch of Islam.Nov 8, 2023
Bahāʾ Allāh | Founder of Baha'i Faith, Prophet of Unity
ElishaElijah
Return
By saying Jesus is dead, you deny the Scriptures.
”The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”“
Acts 1:1-11 NKJV
Yet you say some mystical return of Jesus happened already…False
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I do not deny the Scriptures, since they say that Jesus is in Heaven at the right hand of God, which is what I believe.
However, nowhere do the Scriptures say that the physical body of Jesus is still alive, and nowhere do the Scriptures say that the physical body of Jesus was taken up to heaven.
Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The disciples were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky and said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. It does not say that the disciple saw a body go up.
It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes sense since angels can see spirits.
Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being who had the Christ Spirit. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, the soul of Jesus that has always existed descended from heaven, by the will of God.
You do not know that is false, you only believe it is false. I believe it is true.
ElishaElijah
Return
Wow is all I got to say…Jesus ate and visited believers for 40 days after He rose from the dead, plainly says they watched Him ascend into Heaven and will return the same way and every eye will see Him and still twist the Scriptures to mean something else.
I know you got a different spirit for sure but not the Holy Spirit because He doesn’t teach or lead people in the direction you’re going.
”Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”“
Revelation 1:7-8 NKJV
”The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”“
John 20:25-29 NKJV
”And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence.“
Luke 24:38-43 NKJV
*Right here the Scriptures again declare the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
You are replying to a post about passages from the New Testament. That is not the Torah.
The only part of the Hebrew scriptures used there is the prophecy of Joel (Acts 2:17-21) and I was explaining the plain meaning of how this passage was used in the New Testament.
Jewish beliefs have nothing to do with it.
Baha'is are not Christians and just want to come in and claim that what the Bible says is rubbish and basically I was pointing that out. Baha'is like to say that they are just interpreting the Bible and specifically in this case, the New Testament, in a different way,,,,,,,,,,, but I was showing that this is not the case, that what the Baha'is want to say is an interpretation, is no more than a denial of what the passages tell us and a replacement with the claims of Baha'u'llah about who he is and the teachings of Baha'i.
The meaning of Joel has already been given in the New Testament and Baha'is it seems are not able to read and understand what Peter, in Acts 2, says about it.
If you have a disagreement about the "interpretation" of other things in my post then tell me what your "interpretation" is, but realise that a claim that the verses are not true, is not an interpretation,,,,,,,,,,,, it is just the fruit of the false prophet.
The Torah is the foundation of prophesy for Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Without it the interpretation in later scriptures is literally meaningless, breause out of necessity they must refer back to the Torah.
We have a long history of problems with the interpretation of scripture and you rejecting science based on the literal interpretation of the
Pentateuch. This is your greatest achilles heal is your irrational rejection of the facts of science clinging to an ancient tribal worldview that even most Jews believe is no longer viable to be considered a literal interpretation. Also, and important, many different churches disagree with you interpretation of scripture and prophecy with no consensus and unresolvable conflict abound, because all the religions and churches often disagree.
Jewish beliefs have everything to do with it, because it demonstrates your interpretations are not literal and the only possible interpretation. The bottomline is again and again the Torah is the Jewish scripture and their language and they reject all the interpretations you make concerning Jesus and all those claimed by Islam and the Baha'i Faith.
The meaning given in the New Testament is for the view of the compilers rejected by the Jews, and all the prophesies for the Messiah were not fulfilled by Jesus regardless of whether Jesus is the true Messiah or not.
Actually you were given a specific clear reference to prophecy pointing to 1844 agreed by many Christians around the world for the return of the Messiah at that time and you failed to respond. Were they all wrong believing in the return of the Messiah in 1844?
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Some men wrote stories that say Jesus ate and visited believers for 40 days after He rose from the dead.
There is no reason for me to believe those stories since a story is no proof that anything in the story ever took place. A story is only proof that someone can write a story.
The Bible says they watched Jesus ascend into Heaven and He will return the same way He ascended but we do not know what they saw.
The Bible does not say that they saw a physical body go up. That is just a Christian belief, not what the Bible actually says.
If the Bible says that every eye will see Jesus when He returns that means the verse is incorrect or other parts of the Bible are incorrect, since Jesus said:
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
Jesus is said He was no more in this world.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
And still you try to twist the Scriptures to mean something else because you cannot face the reality that Jesus is NEVER returning to this world..
Who cares? Anyone can write a story, but a story is not proof that anything in the story ever took place.
ElishaElijah
Return
That’s fine, then don’t quote the Bible, say you believe the Bible, say you don’t deny it, it’s dishonest. Showed you where Jesus says look I’m not spirit but flesh and blood after He rose and then you continue to twist scripture and deny the Scriptures.
The Bible calls people like this false teachers
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You have a narrow Hellenist-Roman view of ancient tribal scripture even rejected by the Jews, and it is their Book in their language.
ElishaElijah
Return
Yes, you got that right! If I told my children to make their bed when they get up the first thing. I wouldn’t expect them to make up some spiritual, mystical idea on what I meant.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe part of the Bible, but not all of it.
I showed you where Jesus said He was NO MORE in the world and the world would see Him NO MORE and then you continue to twist scripture and deny the Scriptures by saying that Jesus is coming back to this world.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
For centuries the return of Christ has been a central theme of Christian hope, and is associated with the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. Could it be that the confusion and stress, the oppression and darkness of our day—a day which has witnessed the return of the Jews to the Holy Land—are the fulfillment of all the signs and portents which Christ gave to his followers?
The author of this book certainly believes it is so, George Townshend, a dignitary of the Anglican Church in Ireland and a Canon of St. Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin, resigned his Orders after forty years to proclaim his conviction that Christ has come again to an unheeding world in the person of Baha’u’llah, Founder of the Baha’i Faith.
(From the book Christ and Baha'u'llah, 1957)
George Townshend referred to Christians who twisted the Scriptures the False Prophets
“It has long been generally believed that Jesus Christ was a unique incarnation of God such as had never before appeared in religious history and would never appear again. This tenet made the acceptance of any later Prophet impossible to a Christian. Yet there is nothing in Christ’s own statements, as recorded in the Gospel, to support this view, and it was not generally held during His lifetime.
Another opinion which Christians universally hold about Christ is that His teaching was absolute and final. They believe that if the Truth were partly withheld from them for a time because they could not bear it, it was divulged at Pentecost in its fullness and that now nothing remains to be revealed. But there is nothing in the account of Pentecost to suggest such an interpretation and there is no one who will believe that Jesus would have named the false prophets as characteristic of His age if this warning was to be followed by an immediate release of all Truth to the Church. What the Bible shows is rather a succession of teachers—Abraham, Moses and Christ, each measuring His Revelation to the needs and maturity of His authors….
Many of these false interpretations involve repudiation of the Word of God in favor of the word of man. This impious act is so craftily performed, with such an air of humility, that it might escape the notice of the most sincere and devout of worshippers. Probably few churchgoers realize today that the Gospel of Christ as known to the few in the pulpit is wholly different from the Gospel which Christ preached in Galilee as recorded in the Bible.
In spite of Christ’s promise of further revelation of Truth, through the Comforter, through His own return, through the Spirit of Truth, the Christian Church regards His revelation as final, and itself as the sole trustee of true religion. There is no room for the Supreme Redeemer of the Bible to bring in great changes for the establishment of the Kingdom of God. In fact this Kingdom is often described as a world-wide Church.
Having thus closed God’s Covenant with the Bible, sacred history—God-directed—came to an end, and secular history, having no sense of divine destiny nor unity, began…..
“Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.
To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”
The False Prophets, pp. 25-30
Those that disagree with you do not deny the scriptures. It is a fact that the Jews emphatically and totally believe your interpretation of the Torah is wrong and they do not consider the New Testament true scriptures. They do not deny the Torah it is there book in their language, and ah . . . their prophesies..
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