For Trump, size clearly matters; reality, not so much

[Pogo]

When you use clinical terminology and diagnosis you are playing doctor. Amd sometimes it gets silly like some absurd documentary that tried to diagnose a faceless, generalized idea of what a large corporation is with something like schizophrenia or some other psychotic disorder (it also misrepresented Milton Friedman).
It's damaging, it's stigmatizing and it distorts meaning anf what things actually are because laymen aren't trained in these things, and it shows because in a clinical setting a clinician does not open it up and go down the checklist. They have to talk with the patient, access things, listen to them in their own words. And as I pointed out there are areas of very sharp contrast between the public Trump who has been one way and the private Trump that was very different.
Or think if it this way. Laymen get things so wrong that it's a lost cause on getting people to realize that deliberately acting aggressive is not and cannot be passive aggressive. It's not leaving angry notes, it's keeping silent amd doing nothing when someone's about to get hit by a truck. And that's just a behavior, possible symptom, yes, but just a behavior and not even a diagnosis.

When you use clinical terminology and diagnosis you are playing doctor. Amd sometimes it gets silly like some absurd documentary that tried to diagnose a faceless, generalized idea of what a large corporation is with something like schizophrenia or some other psychotic disorder (it also misrepresented Milton Friedman).
It's damaging, it's stigmatizing and it distorts meaning anf what things actually are because laymen aren't trained in these things, and it shows because in a clinical setting a clinician does not open it up and go down the checklist. They have to talk with the patient, access things, listen to them in their own words. And as I pointed out there are areas of very sharp contrast between the public Trump who has been one way and the private Trump that was very different.
Or think if it this way. Laymen get things so wrong that it's a lost cause on getting people to realize that deliberately acting aggressive is not and cannot be passive aggressive. It's not leaving angry notes, it's keeping silent amd doing nothing when someone's about to get hit by a truck. And that's just a behavior, possible symptom, yes, but just a behavior and not even a diagnosis.

I'm sorry but no, using clinical terminology is not playing doctor, it is using your intelligence to use the correct terms for a discussion with potentially professionals. It is like me hearing about claudication from the nurse in the sleep clinic and googling it and reading the symptoms etc and then going to the doctor and saying in his terms, I am observing x,y,z and him saying, ok, I'll refer you right now. No further questions. Three stents later I am walking again but I had been complaining to various doctors of the symptoms for a while and none of them identified the problem till I brought them the clinical diagnosis on my part.

Nobody here is pretending to be a doctor, we are however intelligent and literate and capable of using appropriate language to discuss issues.

 

[Pogo]

This became publically known when the mismatch of his public behaviors and policies of covid and his private acknowledgement od covid as a serious and deadly threat was leaked.
That isn't saying there is always a mismatch, but it's a neon example of why armchair shrinking people doesn't work.

The usage of clinical terminology is what is damaging. It stigmatizes and demonizes mental illness amd it is entirely possible to discuss his abhorrent behaviors with out. And it builds a stronger case because when you claim he has a diagnosis and you can't produce anything better than speculation based on what you've seen and third third and fourth hand your argument is already off to a bad start.

I'm sorry no again, the use of clinical terminology is not inappropriate, in fact it is ultimately appropriate in avoiding stigma etc, in that it allows for a rational discussion without using words that carry unintended associations. That certain people will misuse whatever language is used is only more reason to use correct language.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm sorry but no, using clinical terminology is not playing doctor, it is using your intelligence to use the correct terms for a discussion with potentially professionals. It is like me hearing about claudication from the nurse in the sleep clinic and googling it and reading the symptoms etc and then going to the doctor and saying in his terms, I am observing x,y,z and him saying, ok, I'll refer you right now. No further questions. Three stents later I am walking again but I had been complaining to various doctors of the symptoms for a while and none of them identified the problem till I brought them the clinical diagnosis on my part.

Nobody here is pretending to be a doctor, we are however intelligent and literate and capable of using appropriate language to discuss issues.

Yes. Armchair shrinking people is playing doctor. The APA issued a statement telling clinicians to knock it off. And if they can't do it, largely for the reasons I've been stating, how can laymen reasonably expect to do it when they lack necessary nuance to properly evaluate someone?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm sorry no again, the use of clinical terminology is not inappropriate, in fact it is ultimately appropriate in avoiding stigma etc, in that it allows for a rational discussion without using words that carry unintended associations. That certain people will misuse whatever language is used is only more reason to use correct language.

Yes, it is very destructive to do so.
The Danger Of Armchair Diagnosing Someone You Don't Know (Even A Celeb) - Women

Is it ever ethical for doctors to diagnose patients they haven’t examined?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

6 Reasons Armchair Psychology is Dangerous - MPAmind.com

Armchair psychology is when non-experts diagnose others with psychological disorders. It may seem harmless but here are 6 reasons to avoid it.

www.mpamind.com

 

[Pogo]

Yes. Armchair shrinking people is playing doctor. The APA issued a statement telling clinicians to knock it off. And if they can't do it, largely for the reasons I've been stating, how can laymen reasonably expect to do it when they lack necessary nuance to properly evaluate someone?

And clinicians should knock it off, talking out of school is inappropriate, but no, lacking some undefined nuance is not a good reason not to state your opinion, I spent quite a few years called into international meetings with the PhD's from my company and flown to a foreign country because I had talked about my observations in as close to an appropriate voice as possible, Those who have professional qualifications need to uphold their professions but that does not oblige anyone else to keep silent and If we have spent time on the subject.
Doctors as you and certainly I know, are not infallible and alternate opinions are useful if well argued the same as any other opinion.

If your real objection is people speaking from a point of massive ignorance, I agree they are to be discouraged, but that isn't actually the situation here.

 

[fantome profane]

In anither thread I used as an example a plastic surgeon who told us all about Michael Jackson's plastic surgery.

But Michael Jackson's plastic surgery did not effect other people. No one other than Jackson him self was affected by whether or not he had a nose job, or several.

Trump's Narcissism could, and did, get people killed. Trump's Narcissism could have a devastating impact on the world we all live in.

 

[Copernicus]

Yes, it is very destructive to do so.
The Danger Of Armchair Diagnosing Someone You Don't Know (Even A Celeb) - Women

Is it ever ethical for doctors to diagnose patients they haven’t examined?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

6 Reasons Armchair Psychology is Dangerous - MPAmind.com

Armchair psychology is when non-experts diagnose others with psychological disorders. It may seem harmless but here are 6 reasons to avoid it.

www.mpamind.com

I read both articles. The first is addressed to professional clinicians, but it does list a few exceptions to the rule. It isn't relevant to the current discussion, since nobody here claims to be issuing a professional diagnosis or to be required to follow professional ethics as if they were. We've pointed that out to you repeatedly.

The second hints at possible dangers but fails to provide any concrete evidence of actual harm. One of the exceptions in the first article mentioned that clinicians often create psychological profiles for foreign leaders, criminals, etc., when working with intelligence services and law enforcement. Those who have written openly about Donald Trump say that they feel an obligation to warn the public of signs that they are observing in Trump, because he is a very powerful public official. That strikes me as an argument worth considering.

As for the harm done in social media discussions like this one, the claim that it is "very destructive" strikes me as unproven. The "6 reasons" mentioned come off as vague and tenuous, but I particularly liked number 4:

4. People begin to live up to our labels​

It’s called projective identification. In simple terms, if you keep telling someone they are obsessive, hyperactive narcissistic, borderline, pathological or whatever, they will eventually give up the fight and behave in a way that supports your judgment.

The author of the opinion piece just couldn't resist engaging in a little armchair diagnosis of his own, although he didn't provide any evidence to show that public discussions of this sort have that kind of effect on people. Donald Trump did not just start exhibiting this behavior. He reportedly behaved the same way long before anyone accused him of being a pathological narcissist. Not pointing it out to him is hardly going to cure him of behaving as if he were.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, but it's also a diversion. The point is that the pathological lying is spiraling out of control, with Trump making brain-dead claims that are pitifully easy to debunk. The man is giving a very good impression of someone who is scared and becoming unhinged. That's potentially dangerous.

Absolutely.
On some more right-wing websites I've noticed that folks are becoming worried about his very wobbly moods and attitudes. Some are talking about supporting RFK instead.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

On some more right-wing websites I've noticed that folks are becoming worried about his very wobbly moods and attitudes. Some are talking about supporting RFK instead.

I'd love to see RFK get half the MAGA vote.

 

[oldbadger]

I'd love to see RFK get half the MAGA vote.

Wouldn't that be great?
10% would be sweet enough.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hey, @Kenny....
Speaking of political discussion.....have you yet
addressed Trump's attempts to steal the election, eg,
fake electors in 7 states, ordering Pence to over-turn it,
threatening Secretaries of States if they don't "find" his
needed votes?
I find it odd that so many Republicans favor a candidate
who committed such treason....attempting to over-throw
an election is acceptable? Or how is Harris so bad that
a sexual predator felon who's losing his mind is preferred?

 

[Kenny]

Hey, @Kenny....
Speaking of political discussion.....have you yet
addressed Trump's attempts to steal the election, eg,
fake electors in 7 states, ordering Pence to over-turn it,
threatening Secretaries of States if they don't "find" his
needed votes?
I find it odd that so many Republicans favor a candidate
who committed such treason....attempting to over-throw
an election is acceptable? Or how is Harris so bad that
a sexual predator felon who's losing his mind is preferred?

It’s been so long… refresh my memory. Which one was he found guilty of? Or where in the legal system is it currently at?

 

[Revoltingest]

It’s been so long… refresh my memory. Which one was he found guilty of? Or where in the legal system is it currently at?

Another refusal to answer, eh.

 

[Kenny]

Another refusal to answer, eh.

No answer to my question? Has your memory also faded on this issue? Or is your position another “I approve of this message”!

 

[Revoltingest]

No answer to my question?

I asked you a question.
You responded with a command to
refresh your memory, & more questions.
That is evasion.

 

[Kenny]

I asked you a question.
You responded with a command to
refresh your memory, & more questions.
That is evasion.

But the questions are poignant. It separates political posture from reality

 

[McBell]

But the questions are poignant. It separates political posture from reality

ONLY if you accept his previous convictions.

If not, it is nothing more than dishonest evasion.

Do you?
Accept the findings of him being guilty?

 

[fantome profane]

It’s been so long… refresh my memory. Which one was he found guilty of? Or where in the legal system is it currently at?

That is a cheap and shameful evasion. You are trying to evade reality. The fact that a court case is moving slowly is not an excuse for ignoring the facts.

 

[Revoltingest]

But the questions are poignant. It separates political posture from reality

Your refusal to answer serves as an answer.

 

[Kenny]

Your refusal to answer serves as an answer.

As do yours.