Foreigners in the Bible

[Aqualung]

There's quite a difference between the first half of the bible and the second half. In the first half, God makes it clear that Abraham's name will be great, and he will bring everybody else to God. If the people the Israelites conquer are willing to make a treaty, they are allowed to stay so they can be converted. In Esra and Nehemia, especially, the prophets tell the people that they are to cast out any outsider out of their land. Why the change? Does God no longer care if the foreigners are saved through the Jews bringing them to faith in God?

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

Even in the levitical law, the Isrealites were not allowed to marry outsiders for the sake of keeping the Isrealites from picking up other religious practices from their spouses. And yet even in Jesus' family line there is a Moabite (Ruth) and someone from Jericho. The issue is over genuine conversion to Judaism and nothing more. The prophets never told the people to reject those who sincerely wanted to convert to Judaism but rather those who had alterior motives and had the potential of influencing the Isrealites otherwise.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

 

[Aqualung]

Even in the levitical law, the Isrealites were not allowed to marry outsiders for the sake of keeping the Isrealites from picking up other religious practices from their spouses. And yet even in Jesus' family line there is a Moabite (Ruth) and someone from Jericho. The issue is over genuine conversion to Judaism and nothing more. The prophets never told the people to reject those who sincerely wanted to convert to Judaism but rather those who had alterior motives and had the potential of influencing the Isrealites otherwise.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

They did in Ezra. He told the Jews that they had to leave their wives and their children if they were foreigners. If they married a woman and had kids with her, you'd think he was being a positive influence.

 

[Halcyon]

The God of the Old Testament was the God of a single people, and was most likely originally a God of war. It was his role to make sure that the people of Israel gained territory, defeated their enemies and generally prospered.
They served Him, He looked after them.

The God of the New Testament, the God of Jesus, is the God of all men - not just the Jews. There are no foreigners to this God.

Makes sense to me anyway.

 

[may]

it is my belief as a JW that for this time of the end , many things going on now are happening in a similar way to the earlier times , now the ( spiritual israelites ) 144,000 have many foreiners that have joined themselves to the spiritual Jews,and they are known as the great crowd spoken of in revelation 7;9-10

 

[Nehustan]

I thought all the people in the bible were foreigners? After all as the axiom goes ''Westernised Oriental Gentlemen' begin at Calais....

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The God of the Old Testament was the God of a single people, and was most likely originally a God of war.

The God of the old testament was most likely the sycretic result of the influx of southern nomadic followers of yhw into the Canaanite highlinds of the followers of El. See, for example, Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts or the earlier collection Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel.

 

[Ody]

The God of the Old Testament was the God of a single people,

:no::no: :no: WROOOOOOOOONG. Shows how much you actually know bout the ot

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

WROOOOOOOOONG. Shows how much you actually know bout the ot

:no::no::no: WROOOOOOOOONG. Shows how much you actually know bout Deuteronomy 32:8 - a verse towards which a feel a certain kinship.

 

[Aqualung]

The God of the Old Testament was the God of a single people

No he wasn't.

32:8 seems to simply say God forordained Israel. It says nothing to the contrary about other nations.

Amos 9:7 is another interesting one. It says that God not only brought the Israelites out of Egypt, but that he also brought the Philistines out of Caphtor and the Syrians out of Kir.

God was not the God of a single people.

 

[Halcyon]

God was not the God of a single people.

YHWH was/is the God of the Jews. He only gave the Torah to the children of Israel.

Did he give the Torah to the Norse or the Chinese or the Native Americans? No, he gave it to His chosen people - the people who worshipped him, in the only land in which he was known.

Do Jews believe their God is the God of all people? Yes, but common sense tells us why this belief exists. Its a symptom of monotheism. If your God is the only God and all others are false Gods, then by default your God becomes the God of all people.

 

[jewscout]

There's quite a difference between the first half of the bible and the second half. In the first half, God makes it clear that Abraham's name will be great, and he will bring everybody else to God. If the people the Israelites conquer are willing to make a treaty, they are allowed to stay so they can be converted. In Esra and Nehemia, especially, the prophets tell the people that they are to cast out any outsider out of their land. Why the change? Does God no longer care if the foreigners are saved through the Jews bringing them to faith in God?

well a non-jew can still live amongst the jews and be a non-jew, simply live by the noahidic laws.
there is no need for conversion, then or now, imo

 

[Aqualung]

YHWH was/is the God of the Jews. He only gave the Torah to the children of Israel.

Did you even LOOK at the quote I gave you? He only gave the Torah to the children of Israel, in our records. But even our records hold record of the fact that God led other people out of bondage to other lands.

Did he give the Torah to the Norse or the Chinese or the Native Americans?

The Torah? No. What about people like Noah, though? He wasn't an Israelite, yet he had direct communication with God, and was the one who saved the human race. Abraham also wasn't an Israelite. He also was a prophet of God.

No, he gave it to His chosen people - the people who worshipped him, in the only land in which he was known.

Well, I disagree with that entire statement. The Israelites tended to worship baal most of the time, or Baal under the guise of YHWH. And think about the other children of Noah, the ones who didn't lead to Jacob. They probably had some recollection or some sort of rememberance of what God did for them through Noah. Esau probably did, as well. Ishmael also probably did. But we unfortunately don't have their records. All we have is a lot of different religions that are surprisingly similar.

well a non-jew can still live amongst the jews and be a non-jew, simply live by the noahidic laws.
there is no need for conversion, then or now, imo

If that were true, why did Ezra tell the Jews they needed to abandon their wives and children if they were foreigners?

 

[Halcyon]

Did you even LOOK at the quote I gave you? He only gave the Torah to the children of Israel, in our records. But even our records hold record of the fact that God led other people out of bondage to other lands.

I read it. The fact remains that YHWH chose Israel as his people, not any others. But i understand that as an LDS, you disagree.

The Torah? No. What about people like Noah, though? He wasn't an Israelite, yet he had direct communication with God, and was the one who saved the human race. Abraham also wasn't an Israelite. He also was a prophet of God.

The Israelites are YHWH's chosen people because they are the descendants of Abraham, as was Noah. YHWH chose that bloodline which would become those people. Or those people chose that god, whichever way you want to look at it. You won't find any records of YHWH in China, or in Australia or Finland or the Americas - one country of Israel and their God.

Well, I disagree with that entire statement. The Israelites tended to worship baal most of the time, or Baal under the guise of YHWH. And think about the other children of Noah, the ones who didn't lead to Jacob. They probably had some recollection or some sort of rememberance of what God did for them through Noah. Esau probably did, as well. Ishmael also probably did. But we unfortunately don't have their records. All we have is a lot of different religions that are surprisingly similar.

Baal is the Canaanite word for Lord. The rest is just your speculation.

 

[Aqualung]

The Israelites are YHWH's chosen people because they are the descendants of Abraham, as was Noah.

Noah was before Abraham. Israelites are the descendents of Israel. God obviously chose people who weren't Israelites.

 

[Halcyon]

Noah was before Abraham.

Yeah, i know - i meant that Noah was a person chosen of God, as was Abraham. I can see why you said that from my post though, it was pretty crappy.

My point was YHWH chose Noah, and then chose certain of his descendants as his people. (bearing in mind i don't believe in a global flood, but a local flood was possible) YHWH could have delivered the same message to all people, all at the same time. But he didn't. Why? Because he is the god of Israel alone.

Israelites are the descendents of Israel. God obviously chose people who weren't Israelites.

Yeah, but the only people he chose who weren't Israelite, were the forefathers of the Israelites. There is no real difference. Unless you count Balaam as a prophet of course?

 

[Aqualung]

Why? Because he is the god of Israel alone.

Then why did God lead the Phoenicians and stuff out of their bondage?

 

[jewscout]

If that were true, why did Ezra tell the Jews they needed to abandon their wives and children if they were foreigners?

because u aren't talking about a group of non-jews living amongst jews in that case, you're talking about jews married to non-jews. If that practice were to continue then it would mean the disappearance of the jewish people as a whole, as intermarriage has caused more times than not.

 

[Halcyon]

Then why did God lead the Phoenicians and stuff out of their bondage?

Do you mean the Philistines, or are you talking about another part of the book?

Assuming you meant the Philistines. Can you give me any evidence that they were freed from bondage in a place called Caphtor, outside of this text?
Can you give me another reference in the bible (previous to Amos) that cooborates what is said in Amos 9:7?

If not, then i find it hard to accept that such things happened on the word of this prophet alone.

Also, when we look at the passage in its surrounding context;

7Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?


Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.

For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

We can see that it is giving the message that YHWH expects Israel, the nation that YHWH has chosen and as such represents Him on Earth, to be morally equal if not morally better than their neighbours. Wouldn't you say?

 

[Aqualung]

Do you mean the Philistines, or are you talking about another part of the book?

Yes, the philistines.

Assuming you meant the Philistines. Can you give me any evidence that they were freed from bondage in a place called Caphtor, outside of this text?

Can you give me any evidence that the Israelites were led out of their captivity? Probably a similar amount. Either God led both out, and both were recorded, or God led neither out, yet both were still recorded.

Can you give me another reference in the bible (previous to Amos) that cooborates what is said in Amos 9:7?

No. Does that mean we should disregard Amos? Different prophets teach about different things.

If not, then i find it hard to accept that such things happened on the word of this prophet alone.

Why? Many of the prophets were the only ones to teach certain things.

Also, when we look at the passage in its surrounding context;

We can see that it is giving the message that YHWH expects Israel, the nation that YHWH has chosen and as such represents Him on Earth, to be morally equal if not morally better than their neighbours. Wouldn't you say?

I would say that that is one of the meanings, but not the only. Notwithstanding the fact that God DOES want them to be at least equal, if not better, that does not diminish the fact that God says he led those people out of their captivity as well.