Forgiven of Sins

[Rex]

As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong-


As long as you accept Jesus (look at the title, I'm talking about Christianity) into your heart, believe he is God's son, He rose from the dead, and He died for all of our sins, then you can be forgiven for whatever you have done.

Now I have a slight problem with this generalized idea.

Lets say I am a law abiding moral person that does nothing but good to people around me, but the ONE thing I don't believe in is what is stated above. This means I will not be forgiven and I will ultimitely(sp) go to hell.

BUT

If I am not a law abiding immoral person that goes out and kills and rapes but I do believe in the stated above and I ask for forgiveness then I too can go into the gates of heaven, if I truely ask for forgiveness.



I just don't get that.

 

[OctoberTheHottie]

Me either, unfortunately I was in a thick debate with a Christian on AIM and he was selling me the same thing. No offense, but I was not the one that started the converstation and I never asked for his help, but he was determined that he was responsible for my salvation and he was going to work diligently towards that whether wished to be 'saved' or not. He was completely distrought that he was going to be responsible, that some how he would carry the blame if I were not in heaven. He knew my beliefs and that I didn't agree with him and told me that I would be going to hell. Finally I told him that I didn't see what the point was in being 'saved' because I had in fact once said that prayer and I was baptised when I was younger but I didn't believe that anymore, and poof, all of a sudden he said 'Oh, well thank goodness, why didn't you tell me earlier, I was all upset over nothing' and was quite happy in the fact that he was no longer responsible for me. Althought I still argued the fact that I no longer believed it. But he never agrued with me again.... So the moral of this story is if you ever want to shut them up just tell them of your childhood and you are set, lol.... j/k I didn't want to tell him that, his feeling and reaction were quite the 180, I really wasn't expecting that....

 

[Runt]

Yeah, I find it hard to believe as well. Not having a Christian understanding of "Heaven", I can only look at the whole Jesus thing metaphorically.

Metaphorically:

"Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life": Jesus represents living a "good"/"moral" life and the journey of living that life, Jesus represents spiritual truth, Jesus represents LIFE.

"Accept Jesus into your heart": Open your heart to truth, follow the path of a good life, seek spiritual truth. Live well.

"Jesus is God's son": Jesus as a man and Jesus as the "Way Truth and Light" are both creations of God... just like everything else in creation.

"Jesus rose from the dead": Despite the death of Jesus the man, the symbolic "Jesus" lives on.

"Jesus died for all of our sins": Jesus died so that we might make him a martyr and use him as an example for the rest of human eternity... unfortunatly, this kinda backfired (Crusades, Inquizition, Witch Hunts, Salam Witch Trials, etc)

 

[dudley thoth]

Now I have a slight problem with this generalized idea.

Lets say I am a law abiding moral person that does nothing but good to people around me, but the ONE thing I don't believe in is what is stated above. This means I will not be forgiven and I will ultimitely(sp) go to hell.

I have a problem with this generalized idea as well.

Is this an accurate picture of Christianity?

I'm not sure if it is.

 

[Hirohito18200]

It really depends on the time of Justification.

If you accept Jesus, then go rape, burn, and pillage knowing that you will be forgiven, you will not, because you ignored his commandments. "Not all who call me 'Lord', 'Lord' will enter the kindom of heaven". However, if you rape, pillage, and burn, and then have a change of heart after hearing the good news and accept him, then you're ok. The example of the criminal being crucified with Jesus proof enough.

 

[true blood]

All i'll say is it has to be so simple that even a child can do it.

 

[Rex]

As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong-


As long as you accept Jesus (look at the title, I'm talking about Christianity) into your heart, believe he is God's son, He rose from the dead, and He died for all of our sins, then you can be forgiven for whatever you have done.

Now I have a slight problem with this generalized idea.

Lets say I am a law abiding moral person that does nothing but good to people around me, but the ONE thing I don't believe in is what is stated above. This means I will not be forgiven and I will ultimitely(sp) go to hell.

BUT

If I am not a law abiding immoral person that goes out and kills and rapes but I do believe in the stated above and I ask for forgiveness then I too can go into the gates of heaven, if I truely ask for forgiveness.



I just don't get that.

 

[OctoberTheHottie]

Me either, unfortunately I was in a thick debate with a Christian on AIM and he was selling me the same thing. No offense, but I was not the one that started the converstation and I never asked for his help, but he was determined that he was responsible for my salvation and he was going to work diligently towards that whether wished to be 'saved' or not. He was completely distrought that he was going to be responsible, that some how he would carry the blame if I were not in heaven. He knew my beliefs and that I didn't agree with him and told me that I would be going to hell. Finally I told him that I didn't see what the point was in being 'saved' because I had in fact once said that prayer and I was baptised when I was younger but I didn't believe that anymore, and poof, all of a sudden he said 'Oh, well thank goodness, why didn't you tell me earlier, I was all upset over nothing' and was quite happy in the fact that he was no longer responsible for me. Althought I still argued the fact that I no longer believed it. But he never agrued with me again.... So the moral of this story is if you ever want to shut them up just tell them of your childhood and you are set, lol.... j/k I didn't want to tell him that, his feeling and reaction were quite the 180, I really wasn't expecting that....

 

[Runt]

Yeah, I find it hard to believe as well. Not having a Christian understanding of "Heaven", I can only look at the whole Jesus thing metaphorically.

Metaphorically:

"Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life": Jesus represents living a "good"/"moral" life and the journey of living that life, Jesus represents spiritual truth, Jesus represents LIFE.

"Accept Jesus into your heart": Open your heart to truth, follow the path of a good life, seek spiritual truth. Live well.

"Jesus is God's son": Jesus as a man and Jesus as the "Way Truth and Light" are both creations of God... just like everything else in creation.

"Jesus rose from the dead": Despite the death of Jesus the man, the symbolic "Jesus" lives on.

"Jesus died for all of our sins": Jesus died so that we might make him a martyr and use him as an example for the rest of human eternity... unfortunatly, this kinda backfired (Crusades, Inquizition, Witch Hunts, Salam Witch Trials, etc)

 

[dudley thoth]

Now I have a slight problem with this generalized idea.

Lets say I am a law abiding moral person that does nothing but good to people around me, but the ONE thing I don't believe in is what is stated above. This means I will not be forgiven and I will ultimitely(sp) go to hell.

I have a problem with this generalized idea as well.

Is this an accurate picture of Christianity?

I'm not sure if it is.

 

[true blood]

All i'll say is it has to be so simple that even a child can do it.

 

[tavi]

catch me if I have misinterpreted the first post, but are we assuming that the first good, moral person does not deserve the punishment of hell? From Rom. 3:23 we get that everyone, meaning even the good, moral people, have at some point or another fallen short of the glory of God, earning themselves one trip to Hell. Some people cannot understand that you can fall out of God's glory by disrespecting your mother or murdering her. Some interesting math that I have done regarding our good, moral person sheds, I think, some new light on the unfortunate idea of those who are supposedly too good and upstanding to deserve hell.
Suppose someone only sinned 3 times a day. Say they yelled at someone, hated someone, and lusted after someone walking by. Three sins isn't really that many, and this person might be thought of by others as good and moral. But how does 1095 sins sound? That would be our good citizen's track record after a year. And after a long, happy life of seventy years, our friend's ledger would add up to 76,650 sins against God. When he/she passes and stands before God, and God asks for a reason to let our friend in, "I was a good person" will definetly provide some comedy to stimulate God's sense of humor. Good thing Jesus offers to make us clean before God so we can escape the penalty promised to us.

 

[Rex]

catch me if I have misinterpreted the first post, but are we assuming that the first good, moral person does not deserve the punishment of hell? From Rom. 3:23 we get that everyone, meaning even the good, moral people, have at some point or another fallen short of the glory of God, earning themselves one trip to Hell. Some people cannot understand that you can fall out of God's glory by disrespecting your mother or murdering her. Some interesting math that I have done regarding our good, moral person sheds, I think, some new light on the unfortunate idea of those who are supposedly too good and upstanding to deserve hell.
Suppose someone only sinned 3 times a day. Say they yelled at someone, hated someone, and lusted after someone walking by. Three sins isn't really that many, and this person might be thought of by others as good and moral. But how does 1095 sins sound? That would be our good citizen's track record after a year. And after a long, happy life of seventy years, our friend's ledger would add up to 76,650 sins against God. When he/she passes and stands before God, and God asks for a reason to let our friend in, "I was a good person" will definetly provide some comedy to stimulate God's sense of humor. Good thing Jesus offers to make us clean before God so we can escape the penalty promised to us.

But you are dancing around the point.

I would have rather commited those 76,650 sins than murdered 1 person.

And lets say I don't ask for forgiveness of those 76,650 sins but the person that took another person's life does, thus they will go to heaven and I won't.

That math doesn't add up.

 

[Ardhanariswar]

Lets say I am a law abiding moral person that does nothing but good to people around me, but the ONE thing I don't believe in is what is stated above. This means I will not be forgiven and I will ultimitely(sp) go to hell.

BUT

If I am not a law abiding immoral person that goes out and kills and rapes but I do believe in the stated above and I ask for forgiveness then I too can go into the gates of heaven, if I truely ask for forgiveness.

for the first case, thats what fundamentalist christians believe. most christians nowadas accept other religions, and that is what is true. jesus is nothing but an incarnation of God. I worship God, so i technically worship the Christ in spirit, if even though i dont know n e thing about him. if you look at almost everyreligion, there is always a christ like figure, like buddha, or krishna.

for the second case, you will be forgiven if you repent. thats why i believe in reincarnation. a lot of chances for you to achieve salvation/God/eternal bliss and Fuzziness. but you have to stop raping.

i think if you believed truly in Jesus Christ, i dont think you would randomly start raping unless if you interpreted the new testament with the bible book upside down, backwards wearing glasses that messed up your vision.

 

[true blood]

The point is to restore God's spirit, aka the holy ghost, the gift, within Man. This "gift" is the communcation used between God and Man. The first Man, Adam, was created with God's spirit as part of him. God spoke to Man and had told him "in the very day thou eatest of the "tree" thou shalt surely die". Therefore when Adam "disobeyed", this communication of spirit between God and Man died. Thus from this point on everyone born of the flesh "lacked" this "holy spirit" that was created in the first Adam and the entire point of the Bible is God's plan to "restore" the "gift" in Mankind.

I don't follow how being "moral" or the "number of sins" has anything to do with this restoration.

 

[quick]

There are no "good" people--we are all sinners, and incapable of doing good on our own, as we have all inherited Adam's sin-nature. Until we are "born again", we are corruped by our sin. Read this from Ephesians 2--it provides a good theological basis for your understanding of Christian forgiveness, which is based upon grace through faith in Jesus, as opposed to good works:


1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[1] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[true blood]

Being "Moral" or "Sinful" has nothing to do it. Ever since the fall of Adam, at which time man lost God's created spirit, the Bible teaches that God originally made man as a threefold being, having a spirit [the quality of which God is constituded], but also a body and a soul. God was with Adam by way of the spirit He had created in him. Man had spirit in common with God and it was the spirit within man that enabled man to communicate with God and God to communicate with man thus giving them fellowship. Since the fall of Adam, God throughout the many centuries sought a permanent dwelling place. In Old Testament times, God gave instructions to Moses for building a tabernacle. Later he directed Solomon to construct the temple. But none of those abodes was satisfactory. They were only temporary types of dwellings or meeting places for God and Man. Throughout the centuries God awaited the Age of Grace, which began of the day of Pentecost. From this day on God could create spirit within man.

The structures, Moses' tabernacle and Solomon's temple were only provisional arrangements, temporary measures until God brought about a permanant, perfect dwelling place. Study Solomon's temple structure. One part was made up of the sacred courts and the colonnades. Another part was the court of the Gentiles, where the moneychangers were seated when Jesus overthrew the tables. The third part was the innermost part, the Holy of Holies. A wall separated these sections. On the day of Jesus' cruicfixion the veil was destroyed between the court of the gentiles and the jews and the veil between the jews and the Holy of Holies was destroyed. God no longer held one group in higher esteem than any other.

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity..." means Jesus Christ totally destroyed the inability of man to know God personally. Jesus abolished in his flesh the enmity and the law of commandments. The enmity relates to the natural men of body and soul. The law of commandments in ordinances was given to Israel. Thus Jesus tore down the obstacles which were separating man from God. This was all done in order that God could create a new man. The creation is the spirit. Like the creation of the first Adam.

Israel never was able to keep the law so they were without God. The Gentiles (unbelievers) were also without God. Jesus Christ reconciled both to God. Once the reconcilatoin was complete God became Father to both, thus having a permanent dwelling place, not in a temple made with human hands but in a temple made by his own hands, mankind. This habitation the purpose God brought about Mankind, this is what he wanted before the foundation of the world but because of God's justice he want's didn't bring it about until His Son Jesus Christ had finished his work. Then it was legally possible for God to have a dwelling place within a person when any person would confess with his mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe God raised him from the dead. Then God in Christ is created in every believer. And this can be magnified by worshiping him truthfully vai the Spirit.

 

[tavi]

the general idea I was going for was that a sin is a sin, and we're all dirty. The illustration was supposed to point out that even the "good" people have separated themselves from God one way or another. Now if we're going by the Bible, and we've got Rom. 6:32 saying that the wages of sin is death, it doesn't really matter what type of sin you choose. Those guilty of sin will receive their reward. I figure that God figured that includes everybody (Rom. 3:23) so he inspired Paul to tack on the rest of the verse-"but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." If it's against God, it's sin, whether it gets you thrown in jail or not. There we acquire our separation from God (kind of a given; our sinful nature automatically separated us back in the day.) Thankfully, we have a way to clean our dirty selves, no matter what our dirt consists of.

My point, hidden in there somewhere, is that a 76,650-sin dirt pile and a murderous dirt pile have one thing in common: they both make you unclean in the eyes of God.

*****I will chuck this in for free... what if God did not punish the person with 76,650 sins? Then the standard of holiness before God would be gone, and only the murderers in prison would need Jesus. God demands that you stand before Him cleansed and holy. If you think you're ok because you're cleaner than that guy over there, but you're still dirty, then your standard of judging yourself is relative. What if there were no murderers? Then perhaps the people who stole would be the worst. What if they were gone? and so on and so forth...... God has a standard and it's complete holiness. He made it very easy to obtain. For free.


A quick question for you- are you implying that since you don't think God is just by requiring everyone to meet His standard, He does not exist and His word is false?

 

[Lightkeeper]

This thread first started in May, I'm interested to see what the forum thinks now.

 

[Hope]

As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong-


As long as you accept Jesus (look at the title, I'm talking about Christianity) into your heart, believe he is God's son, He rose from the dead, and He died for all of our sins, then you can be forgiven for whatever you have done.

Now I have a slight problem with this generalized idea.

Lets say I am a law abiding moral person that does nothing but good to people around me, but the ONE thing I don't believe in is what is stated above. This means I will not be forgiven and I will ultimitely(sp) go to hell.

BUT

If I am not a law abiding immoral person that goes out and kills and rapes but I do believe in the stated above and I ask for forgiveness then I too can go into the gates of heaven, if I truely ask for forgiveness.



I just don't get that.

Too often we use extreme examples to illustrate a 'moral' and an 'immoral' person. The fact is, whether we like it or not, no matter how 'good' we are, none of us is completely perfect and faultless. Even very good people have faults, which usually aren't noticeable by other people. I totally realize that Christianity is a very difficult thing to accept for a lot of people. But being a Christian means admitting to God, that no matter how 'good' we are, we still fall short of His standard. 'Sin' isn't a term we like to use, but all it basically means is 'missing the mark.' God puts every human being on an even plane--we've all missed the mark! We may think we're pretty close, but in reality, in our own strength we will never be able to quite measure up. And in that case, one may ask--well, why bother trying? Well, in a sense, God doesn't want us to 'try,' believe it or not. All He asks for is something that is both very easy and very difficult--and that is faith in Him. There are numerous examples in the Bible where God equates faith with righteousness. Faith is of extreme value and importance to God. The more faith we have in Him, the more He will be able to work in us to help us measure up to that 'mark.'

I hope this helps a little.