Forgiveness

[slave2six]

No, it's worthless by YOUR standard. By my standard it is a good and useful tool, it's just not perfect.

And by the way, EVERYONE is "picking and choosing". Even those who pick the bible and choose to imagine that it's inerrant are still picking and choosing. Because that's what we humans do. Ignorance is part of the human condition, so all we can do is pick what makes sense to us and choose to go with it as true until we learn otherwise.

At least those who pick the Bible as inerrant are picking a standard by which to measure things. The way you use the Scriptures is like trying to build a car our of fog. If personal opinion is the highest standard then anarchy is the natural result and every religion simply means "whatever I want it to mean" which is using six words to say nothing.

 

[slave2six]

Rgds that sacrifice of Jesus by crucification is the feeling of others and not of Jesus. Am sure he never said he was sacrificing or anything but his followers felt it that way. Love & rgds

He did refer to himself as "the good shepherd" and "I lay my life down for my sheep." There are lots of places in Scripture where Jesus made it clear that he intended to die and for a purpose.

"From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life," the purpose being "...to give his life as a ransom for many."

 

[slave2six]

The Crucifixion was how we were forgiven, through Jesus. All are forgiven because of His death, it is just the choice of some weather to except this forgiveness on faith through a belief in Christ.

Finally! Someone who understands and agrees with the OP.

The question then is why was the crucifixion necessary? Considering that forgiveness by its nature does not require sacrifice and that the life of Christ was a living example of forgiveness and his instructions to his disciples was to forgive without limits, why then did God require a sacrifice. The two are in conflict with one another.

 

[slave2six]

Hey, nobody said religion had to make logical sense.

True.

 

[slave2six]

Slave4six seems to have only a very narrow reading of Pauline- Protestant/ Anselmian Christianity.

The Church, historically and currently, has far richer understanding of the Cross. One should begin with the Incarnation, but not end there.

I am not ending with the incarnation. I am asking why the death of Christ is necessary for reconciliation between God and man. Could Christianity as it is understood and practiced exist without the crucifixion?

The fact that I can stay on point does not mean that I am narrow...

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Of course the cross is essential to Christianity. I just think you give far too much weight to its juridical interpretation, and seem to understand that as the only perspective.

 

[slave2six]

Of course the cross is essential to Christianity. I just think you give far too much weight to its juridical interpretation, and seem to understand that as the only perspective.

How is it essential?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Because on the cross God, as Son, co-suffered (com-passio) with the human condition.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Christ gave up his life on the Cross so that we might have his life, live in Him, live through him. It is more than the question of forgiveness, but that of the regeneration and transformation of nature. Certainly God could just look away from our sins, as the Psalmist himself prays, but instead Christ descended and placed human nature inside him, held close its flaws and pitfalls, went killed by them, and carried it with him into heaven after He was raised from the dead. Christ brought human nature slewn in His body to the Father, and returned with it restored and perfected to us.

The essential meaning of his Eucharistic sacrifice is that Christ lives for us and that we can live for God by Him- "take, eat, this is my Body" and "take, drink, this is the cup of my blood". He becomes the anima of a new creation. But He is not exhausted in His act of self-giving, as any finite human being is when they give the whole of themselves up for another. Christ shed his blood but he is never depleted of life because He is also God. We can share in that life because he is also human. Through His human nature,we can touch the divine nature- and become ourselves transformed in the divine image.

God more than forgave us, he joined us to Himself in the Body of His Son.

 

[Riverwolf]

Great so what does the pedophile or murderer learn? How nice for someone after he or she dies and goes to heaven and sees his pedophile living it up in heaven! Or the wife of an abuser meeting up with her husband in heaven!

So the terrorists who killed 3,000 innocents on 9/11 are in heaven now? How nice for their victims and those relatives who are living with the pain of the loss of their loved ones.

God does not forgive those who do not realize their sins and ask forgiveness and vow not only to not ever do it again, but work to rectify their wrongdoing.

Karma & Rebirth is the only correct way - Karma forces one to take responsibility, be reborn, make things right. No judge God to simply forgive our errors - we cannot escape responsibility, Rebirth gives us another chance to make things right.

The problem is that we can't remember our past lives, and therefore don't know what we did wrong that needs to be made right.

Say you are driving at night and hit a bump, you think you may have hit someone. Do you continue thinking that even if you killed someone, God will forgive you? What kind of a message does that send?

Karma forces you to deal with the situation, you cannot run away from your responsibilites. You have to stop the car and attend to the person you ran over, if it is not this life, then the next!

Such is taught in Christianity.

Have you heard the parable of the Good Samaritan?

 

[Riverwolf]

He did refer to himself as "the good shepherd" and "I lay my life down for my sheep." There are lots of places in Scripture where Jesus made it clear that he intended to die and for a purpose.

"From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life," the purpose being "...to give his life as a ransom for many."

Ever consider that these words are actually words of the authors and not Jesus?

 

[slave2six]

God more than forgave us, he joined us to Himself in the Body of His Son.

And God could not have done this from the outset because...? That is, why all the business of the fall of man? If God wanted us to live as perfected beings "in him" then there was nothing to prevent him creating the universe in such a fashion that this was a simple fact or reality from the first instant. None of the suffering of mankind would have been necessary.

 

[slave2six]

Ever consider that these words are actually words of the authors and not Jesus?

Don't get me wrong. This is not my hangup. I don't believe that the New Testament is accurate by any standards. But in order to be a Christian you do have to take the "words of Christ" as that and nothing other. Otherwise, there is no real point in referring to the Scriptures.

 

[Riverwolf]

Don't get me wrong. This is not my hangup. I don't believe that the New Testament is accurate by any standards. But in order to be a Christian you do have to take the "words of Christ" as that and nothing other. Otherwise, there is no real point in referring to the Scriptures.

I know a Christian who denied a passage that is attributed to Christ.

Besides, which words of Christ count? There are many collections of words attributed to Jesus that are non-canonical, including the gnostic texts. Does being a Christian require following those as well? If those can be denied by some Christians, why can't others deny certain passages if not entire documents in the New Testament?

 

[Riverwolf]

None of the suffering of mankind would have been necessary.

Would it have been worth it?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

And God could not have done this from the outset because...? That is, why all the business of the fall of man? If God wanted us to live as perfected beings "in him" then there was nothing to prevent him creating the universe in such a fashion that this was a simple fact or reality from the first instant. None of the suffering of mankind would have been necessary.

God created man in an original blessed state, from which he turned. Man can only be perfected through the exercise of his own will. Sin was present as a possibility from the beginning because of freedom. God did not create a world in which it was impossible to refuse Him. In this love is the seeds of suffering, because it leaves us free to choose for ourselves. In the new heaven and earth, sin will have been destroyed by the co-operation of humanity. That is, sin will have been overcome through freedom, and not merely God's own desire or act.

 

[slave2six]

Would it have been worth it?

What do you mean?

 

[slave2six]

God created man in an original blessed state, from which he turned. Man can only be perfected through the exercise of his own will. Sin was present as a possibility from the beginning because of freedom. God did not create a world in which it was impossible to refuse Him. In this love is the seeds of suffering, because it leaves us free to choose for ourselves. In the new heaven and earth, sin will have been destroyed by the co-operation of humanity. That is, sin will have been overcome through freedom, and not merely God's own desire or act.

That's a nice story but, well, it's a story after all. I know a better one...

 

[sojourner]

Necessary for what purpose?

As an act of love.

Therefore, you can just pick and choose whatever you want to within the Scriptures thus turning it from an authoritative document to a mere reference book to support your particular opinion. That is, the entire thing is worthless by your standard.

What's worthless is to take everything simply at face value. We need to understand what was written, why, by whom, when, for what purpose, etc. before we can understand what is being communicated.

 

[sojourner]

Great so what does the pedophile or murderer learn? How nice for someone after he or she dies and goes to heaven and sees his pedophile living it up in heaven! Or the wife of an abuser meeting up with her husband in heaven!

So the terrorists who killed 3,000 innocents on 9/11 are in heaven now? How nice for their victims and those relatives who are living with the pain of the loss of their loved ones.

Karma & Rebirth is the only correct way - Karma forces one to take responsibility, be reborn, make things right. No judge God to simply forgive our errors - we cannot escape responsibility, Rebirth gives us another chance to make things right.

Say you are driving at night and hit a bump, you think you may have hit someone. Do you continue thinking that even if you killed someone, God will forgive you? What kind of a message does that send?

Karma forces you to deal with the situation, you cannot run away from your responsibilites. You have to stop the car and attend to the person you ran over, if it is not this life, then the next!

Nobody said anything about not taking responsibility. But redemption is up to God, not us.

I believe that, at the "heavenly banquet," we will be seated between the person we most hurt and the person who most hurt us. Because personal redemption isn't what Xy is all about. It's the redemption of the human family. In what way can God's redemption be ;perfect and complete, if everyone is not saved?