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I know that in Christian teachings, Jesus stressed the importance of forgiving others. And I supposed that Judaism and Islam have similar teachings.
But what do they say about forgiving yourself?
Note that I am not talking about God or other people forgiving you.
I know that in Christian teachings, Jesus stressed the importance of forgiving others. And I supposed that Judaism and Islam have similar teachings.
But what do they say about forgiving yourself?
commoner said:I would think there is no distinction between "God's forgiveness" and forgiving oneself - it's sort of the necessary and the sufficient condition. And in practice, I would imagine they go very much hand-in-hand for believers, when God "forgives them", they forgive themselves and vice-versa.
Surely a true believer cannot forgive themselves something that is not forgiven by god and surely if they think they have been forgiven by god, they must have forgiven themselves, wouldn't you say?
So you think it is not possible to forgive yourself without god forgiving you?
I find that strange. Is forgiving (in general) a god-thing?
commoner said:Well, if you're somebody who believes in god as the ultimate authority on...everything, then how could you possibly be justified in forgiving yourself unless you were forgiven by god?
Yes, but how do you tell god had forgiven you?
Unless he tell you he had forgiven you, you can wait till the day you die and there's absolutely no way for you to know for sure that he had forgiven you. By then, it would be too late to forgive yourself, because you are waiting for answer from non-communicative (and most likely nonexistent) deity.
In Phillipians 3 Paul says, "but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
Here I believe he is saying we should forget our past failures and sins as God has forgotten and forgiven them, so we won't be burdened down as we move ahead. Its not about working for salvation, but being free to experience the full joy of the salvation we were freely given so we may share the wonderful news with others, which is the high calling Christ has given us.
Right, there is a time for guilt, remorse, and there are consequences to our sins. And there is a time and place to put it behind you and move forward. The joy we may experience is that, having sinned, and having felt the guilt, remorse and consequences of it, and knowing we deserve nothing from God, we find that he forgives us when we humbly come to him. It still blows my mind that God would forgive a poor, miserable, dirty, rotten, no good, stinking sinner as myself, but he did. So now, having been freely forgiven, I can freely forgive myself and others and grow and experience true joy that sin never came close to giving me. That's what I believe, anyway. I hope that makes sense.So, you get hammered, get behind the wheel, smash into a family of five on their way home from vacation, killing two of the kids and putting the others in critical condition, then driving away with no serious injuries. No need to feel guilt or remorse, that's in the past, make yourself a cup of coffee and press on to experience the full joy of "salvation"? Christ is coming, after all!
...Birds flying high, you know how I feel!
Sun in the sky, You know how I feel.
Reeds driftin on by, You know how I feel.
Its a new dawn,
Its a new day,
Its a new life,
For me.
And Im feeling good
I think that's nonsense. There's a time and a place to put the past behind you and there's a time and a place and a very good reason for guilt and remorse.
Right, there is a time for guilt, remorse, and there are consequences to our sins. And there is a time and place to put it behind you and move forward. The joy we may experience is that, having sinned, and having felt the guilt, remorse and consequences of it, and knowing we deserve nothing from God, we find that he forgives us when we humbly come to him. It still blows my mind that God would forgive a poor, miserable, dirty, rotten, no good, stinking sinner as myself, but he did. So now, having been freely forgiven, I can freely forgive myself and others and grow and experience true joy that sin never came close to giving me. That's what I believe, anyway. I hope that makes sense.
I don't disagree with you. While I know I am freely forgiven and my sins are paid for by Christ, I believe I am absolutely responsible for my actions and will answer to God at the Judgment Seat of Christ where some will be rewarded and some will suffer loss. Also in this life we must deal with the consequences of what we sow. Sin is never right in any way. It is terrible. I am not glossing over sin. Its our sin, its our fault, we are one hundred percent responsible. Christ paid a heavy price for our sin so we can be reconciled to God when we humbly come to him confessing our sin. I am saying I believe we can be forgiven by God and be saved. The worst sinner can be saved if he calls upon God. We can only try to repair the damages we have caused to others and learn from it and move on. But we can move on and we can be happy, and I think God wants us to be. That is why he said to forget the past and press upward and onward.It doens't...
It's nice that god forgave you, he must be a nice guy... But that in no way frees you of the responsibility for you actions - no more than my friend "forgiving me" for slapping his girlfriend silly relieves me of my responsibility towards her. I am not free to smell the roses and experience the joy of christ, I'm not free to forgive myself. It is not his forgiveness that makes it right in any way- even though I certainly appreciate it.
Ok...I don't disagree with you. While I know I am freely forgiven and my sins are paid for by Christ, I believe I am absolutely responsible for my actions...
Sure, it was necessary for a deity to have his son killed so that he could forgive humanity for what they had done to him (what could you possibly do to an allpowerful being?), which he of course knew they would have. That's probably the most absurd thing in the NT. Not once have I ever had to sacrifice a son (let's just glance over the striking immorality of such an action for now) or anything else in order to forgive anyone. And I'm far from perfect. Yet the deity had no better way of going about it? You know, snap of the finger, maybe an extended lecture on ethics, something like that? No? Are you sure this is the same guy that could "think" entire universes into existence?...and will answer to God at the Judgment Seat of Christ where some will be rewarded and some will suffer loss. Also in this life we must deal with the consequences of what we sow. Sin is never right in any way. It is terrible. I am not glossing over sin. Its our sin, its our fault, we are one hundred percent responsible. Christ paid a heavy price for our sin so we can be reconciled to God when we humbly come to him confessing our sin.
What does god have to do with it? Like you said, there is no getting past the fact that you are responsible for your actions. Your guilt cannot be taken away by a third party. As I've said - it's great if your friends are still your friends (whether they're fellow primates, imaginary friends or super powerful who-knows-whats) even after you mess up really, really badly - but what that has to do with the topic at hand eludes me... Most you can say is, if you not only mess up, but also lose your friends as a consequence, it'll be harder to bounce back. To my mind you're solving a problem you've created yourself - or if you want, God is solving a problem he had created - and all he wants in return is "faith".I am saying I believe we can be forgiven by God and be saved. The worst sinner can be saved if he calls upon God. We can only try to repair the damages we have caused to others and learn from it and move on. But we can move on and we can be happy, and I think God wants us to be. That is why he said to forget the past and press upward and onward.
OK. I see we are definitely not on the same page here. I can try to share what I believe. Who am I to know the mind of God? What I understand is that according to the Bible, God is infinitely holy and just. He cannot let sin go unpunished and the penalty of sin is death. So its a very bad situation, as all have sinned. So, how can a just God reconcile us to himself and still be just toward sin? Sin must be paid for or God is no longer just. Like if we catch a murderer and don't imprison him justice is not served. God knew the penalty must be paid or justice is not served. So, he paid the penalty for us and freely pardons all who trust him that he did that. Paul put it this way:Ok...
Sure, it was necessary for a deity to have his son killed so that he could forgive humanity for what they had done to him (what could you possibly do to an allpowerful being?), which he of course knew they would have. That's probably the most absurd thing in the NT. Not once have I ever had to sacrifice a son (let's just glance over the striking immorality of such an action for now) or anything else in order to forgive anyone. And I'm far from perfect. Yet the deity had no better way of going about it? You know, snap of the finger, maybe an extended lecture on ethics, something like that? No? Are you sure this is the same guy that could "think" entire universes into existence?
And this forgiveness, it's completely irrelevant. Absolutely nothing had changed, no wrongs righted, no dead children brought back to life, no - but you got your friend back, good. Makes no difference to anyone else though. You've made not a single step in the right direction yet.
What does god have to do with it? Like you said, there is no getting past the fact that you are responsible for your actions. Your guilt cannot be taken away by a third party. As I've said - it's great if your friends are still your friends (whether they're fellow primates, imaginary friends or super powerful who-knows-whats) even after you mess up really, really badly - but what that has to do with the topic at hand eludes me... Most you can say is, if you not only mess up, but also lose your friends as a consequence, it'll be harder to bounce back. To my mind you're solving a problem you've created yourself - or if you want, God is solving a problem he had created - and all he wants in return is "faith".
If your god does not punish sin, then your god is not just. I want a fair and just god who brings justice to the wicked and reward to the righteous.God does not punish or reward us for our evil or good deeds. Karma does that.