Forgiving yourself

[gnostic]

I know that in Christian teachings, Jesus stressed the importance of forgiving others. And I supposed that Judaism and Islam have similar teachings.

But what do they say about forgiving yourself?

Note that I am not talking about God or other people forgiving you.

 

[elmarna]

To forgive your service is to have gained a new perspective & find what you have done no longer is a way of considering it a good way to be. At best I tend to tell young people-"Your past always catches up with you. Do not be upset. Turn around look it straight in the eye & say I am sorry I made the best choice I could at the time!"
To forgive yourself is just letting the imperfect have a value & not a disgrace.
We can improve upon & not be caught up in a world of regrets .Regrets that will kept our spirits down & never let us rise above from the struggle to be at our best!

 

[Commoner]

I know that in Christian teachings, Jesus stressed the importance of forgiving others. And I supposed that Judaism and Islam have similar teachings.

But what do they say about forgiving yourself?

Note that I am not talking about God or other people forgiving you.

I would think there is no distinction between "God's forgiveness" and forgiving oneself - it's sort of the necessary and the sufficient condition. And in practice, I would imagine they go very much hand-in-hand for believers, when God "forgives them", they forgive themselves and vice-versa.

Surely a true believer cannot forgive themselves something that is not forgiven by god and surely if they think they have been forgiven by god, they must have forgiven themselves, wouldn't you say?

 

[rsd]

I know that in Christian teachings, Jesus stressed the importance of forgiving others. And I supposed that Judaism and Islam have similar teachings.

But what do they say about forgiving yourself?

I think I would be more concerned about me starting to live my life as holy as possible and according to the desire of whom I worship; praying for His blessings. It is by the mercy of Jesus or Krsna or Allah, Caitanya, etc. that we are forgiven. God's forgiveness is what ultimately counts.I think its better to just feel sorry for what we have done. That in itself is purifying. In otherwords, be remoseful. And then bump up the holiness on your part. I think this whole matter of forgiveness is so important.

 

[idea]

It is a wonderful thing to recognize our own faults - as we are aware of our own issues, we become more forgiving and empathetic towards others. We become humble, meek, teachable, and grateful for everything we have.

Going through the repentance process in full is a wonderful (albeit painful) experience that forever changes our perception of reality.... in fact, the original Greek word that Jesus used when he asked everyone to repent was - Metanoeo - "Meta" means change, like "metastable = state of flux.... and the noeo part means mind/conscience/perception - so the point is to change how we perceive what reality is.

This is a wonderful poem that explains it well I think:
Metanoia: Turn toward the light

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]Imagine you are standing in a circle of people.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]In the center of the circle, there is a source of light.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]But rather than facing the center and the light, you are standing with your back to the light, facing outward.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]When you stand this way, facing away from the light, all you can see is your own shadow.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]You cannot see the light.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]You can only look into your shadow.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]You cannot see the others in the circle with you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]From what you can see, you are disconnected and alone in the dark.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]Now imagine that you turn around to face the light that is in the center of the circle.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]When you turn toward the light, you no longer see only darkness.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]When you turn toward the light, your shadow is behind you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]When you turn toward the light, you can now see the other people who are standing with you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]You can see that the light is shining on everyone and that you are all connected in its radiance.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]Making the decision to turn around, to turn away from shadow, to face the light: this is metanoia.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif]so at the end of the repentance process, you are able to see everyone (rather than covering everyone in a dark blanket of blame - you can finally admit your own blame, and therefore see everyone else as they really are)... once we can see - not what we want to see - not the version where we are perfect and everyone else is to blame - but can see the version where perhaps we are wrong, and others are right, and we are not defending our ego quite so much - that is when we start really seeing everything for what it really is, and a whole new reality opens up - it's a wonderful awakening when you get there.


seeing is believing?
many say it is the other way around - believing is seeing - belief comes before sight - we see what we believe, we find things to support what we want to see.... when you take the ego out of it, stop trying to defend our own personal nobility, there is a whole other world out there to see...

Edit to add warning:
this loss of ego - losing yourself - can be a very dangerous thing as it leaves you very open to suggestion... so you need a very trustworthy companion to go along on this journey with you, so that you will come out of it seeing things as they really are, rather than just seeing another person's egocentric vision instead of your own.


of coarse I recommend Jesus as being the person you should take along with you on this journey of losing yourself...he loves you enough to die for you - and you need someone who loves you like that to make it over to the other side.
(New Testament | Matthew 10:39)
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

as far as forgiving yourself, yes, through the repentance process, there comes a time where your guilt can be swept away...
5 And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed.
6 And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away.
7 And I said: Lord, how is it done?
8 And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, MS Sans Serif, sans-serif](Book of Mormon | Enos 1:5 - 8)[/FONT]

 

[gnostic]

I would think there is no distinction between "God's forgiveness" and forgiving oneself - it's sort of the necessary and the sufficient condition. And in practice, I would imagine they go very much hand-in-hand for believers, when God "forgives them", they forgive themselves and vice-versa.

Surely a true believer cannot forgive themselves something that is not forgiven by god and surely if they think they have been forgiven by god, they must have forgiven themselves, wouldn't you say?

So you think it is not possible to forgive yourself without god forgiving you?

I find that strange. Is forgiving (in general) a god-thing?

 

[Sunstone]

I find that, unless I forgive myself, I don't forgive others.

 

[Commoner]

So you think it is not possible to forgive yourself without god forgiving you?

Well, if you're somebody who believes in god as the ultimate authority on...everything, then how could you possibly be justified in forgiving yourself unless you were forgiven by god? And on the other hand, if the ultimate authority says: "Ok, you're off the hook now, all debts paid, all wrongs righted," how could you not forgive yourself if you truly believed god had forgiven you?

As somebody who does not believe in a god, I don't really make that distinction. When a believer explains god had forgiven him (for) something, I simply take that to mean he/she had forgiven him-/herself. What else could it be?

I find that strange. Is forgiving (in general) a god-thing?

Well, if "sin", right and wrong are defiened by god, that for which one should seek forgiveness is defined by god. Right? If a believer's "right and wrong" match up with their god's (which I would imagine is axiomatic), then "god's" treatment of the believer's "wrongs", the standards by which they are to be judged, when and under what circumstances they should be forgiven, etc., should be identical to their own. Therefore it must be the case that forgiving oneself goes hand-in-hand with god's forgiveness.

Of course, I would imagine it's very common that, even though the scripture they adhere to does not condone some actions as wrong or morally reprehensible, believers would nevertheless find themselves feeling guilt over (the prospect of) committing them. But that's more a clash of religious doctrine with that person's moral convictions than it is a failure of their god to live up to their standards - because they know that their god wouldn't say/do/condone that. Because they wouldn't...because god wouldn't...because...

Of course some suggest these are "devil's lies" that we choose to believe in despite being forgiven... But who would listen to such drivel...

 

[javajo]

In Phillipians 3 Paul says, "but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

Here I believe he is saying we should forget our past failures and sins as God has forgotten and forgiven them, so we won't be burdened down as we move ahead. Its not about working for salvation, but being free to experience the full joy of the salvation we were freely given so we may share the wonderful news with others, which is the high calling Christ has given us.

 

[gnostic]

Well, if you're somebody who believes in god as the ultimate authority on...everything, then how could you possibly be justified in forgiving yourself unless you were forgiven by god?

Yes, but how do you tell god had forgiven you?

Unless he tell you he had forgiven you, you can wait till the day you die and there's absolutely no way for you to know for sure that he had forgiven you. By then, it would be too late to forgive yourself, because you are waiting for answer from non-communicative (and most likely nonexistent) deity.

 

[Commoner]

Yes, but how do you tell god had forgiven you?

Unless he tell you he had forgiven you, you can wait till the day you die and there's absolutely no way for you to know for sure that he had forgiven you. By then, it would be too late to forgive yourself, because you are waiting for answer from non-communicative (and most likely nonexistent) deity.

There is no distinction - from the believer's perspective they forgive themselves when god forgives them and from my perspective "god" forgives them when they've forgiven themselves.

Imagine it like this...you're a believer and you want a sign from god to tell you whether or not to, let's say, ask your girlfriend to marry you. Next thing you know, there's a gust of wind which lifts up a paper bag and pushes it towards you. What do you make of this?

Isn't it true that depending on whether or not you want to marry her, you can interpret that to mean one or the other - or, if you're unsure, to dismiss it as "not a sign"? So the "sign from god" or lack there of is completely dependant on yourself and completely incidental. It's invented after the dicision had already been made. The only difference is, a believer will say, the bag came before the decision and I'll say the decision came before the bag.

I think the same is true with the notion of "forgiving oneself". Either you reconcile your issues and agree with god that you are forgiven or you don't and you agree with god that you should not be forgiven (yet). In some cases that means losing your belief in a god - which, again, I think is the consequence of having forgiven yourself, not the other way around - just as interpreting the bag to mean "marry her!" is a consequence of the decision you've already made not a cause/reason for going down that route.

What I can't imagine is someone holding a belief in a god (in the sense of the ultimate moral authority) and forgiving themselves something they believe could not be forgiven by that god (at the same time). That's completely contradictory - the best you then could do is to believe in a god you don't consider to be good/moral. I would imagine that to be the reason why "the devil" is so often invoked.

 

[Commoner]

In Phillipians 3 Paul says, "but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

Here I believe he is saying we should forget our past failures and sins as God has forgotten and forgiven them, so we won't be burdened down as we move ahead. Its not about working for salvation, but being free to experience the full joy of the salvation we were freely given so we may share the wonderful news with others, which is the high calling Christ has given us.

So, you get hammered, get behind the wheel, smash into a family of five on their way home from vacation, killing two of the kids and putting the others in critical condition, then driving away with no serious injuries. No need to feel guilt or remorse, that's in the past, make yourself a cup of coffee and press on to experience the full joy of "salvation"? Christ is coming, after all!

...Birds flying high, you know how I feel!
Sun in the sky, You know how I feel.
Reeds driftin’ on by, You know how I feel.
It’s a new dawn,
It’s a new day,
It’s a new life,
For me.
And I’m feeling good…

I think that's nonsense. There's a time and a place to put the past behind you and there's a time and a place and a very good reason for guilt and remorse. And none of it is dictated by how a deity feels about it, he cannot forgive me for something that must be forgiven by others, he cannot rid me of my responsibility.

 

[javajo]

So, you get hammered, get behind the wheel, smash into a family of five on their way home from vacation, killing two of the kids and putting the others in critical condition, then driving away with no serious injuries. No need to feel guilt or remorse, that's in the past, make yourself a cup of coffee and press on to experience the full joy of "salvation"? Christ is coming, after all!

...Birds flying high, you know how I feel!
Sun in the sky, You know how I feel.
Reeds driftin’ on by, You know how I feel.
It’s a new dawn,
It’s a new day,
It’s a new life,
For me.
And I’m feeling good…

I think that's nonsense. There's a time and a place to put the past behind you and there's a time and a place and a very good reason for guilt and remorse.

Right, there is a time for guilt, remorse, and there are consequences to our sins. And there is a time and place to put it behind you and move forward. The joy we may experience is that, having sinned, and having felt the guilt, remorse and consequences of it, and knowing we deserve nothing from God, we find that he forgives us when we humbly come to him. It still blows my mind that God would forgive a poor, miserable, dirty, rotten, no good, stinking sinner as myself, but he did. So now, having been freely forgiven, I can freely forgive myself and others and grow and experience true joy that sin never came close to giving me. That's what I believe, anyway. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Commoner]

Right, there is a time for guilt, remorse, and there are consequences to our sins. And there is a time and place to put it behind you and move forward. The joy we may experience is that, having sinned, and having felt the guilt, remorse and consequences of it, and knowing we deserve nothing from God, we find that he forgives us when we humbly come to him. It still blows my mind that God would forgive a poor, miserable, dirty, rotten, no good, stinking sinner as myself, but he did. So now, having been freely forgiven, I can freely forgive myself and others and grow and experience true joy that sin never came close to giving me. That's what I believe, anyway. I hope that makes sense.

It doens't...

It's nice that god forgave you, he must be a nice guy... But that in no way frees you of the responsibility for you actions - no more than my friend "forgiving me" for slapping his girlfriend silly relieves me of my responsibility towards her. I am not free to smell the roses and experience the joy of christ, I'm not free to forgive myself. It is not his forgiveness that makes it right in any way- even though I certainly appreciate it.

 

[javajo]

It doens't...

It's nice that god forgave you, he must be a nice guy... But that in no way frees you of the responsibility for you actions - no more than my friend "forgiving me" for slapping his girlfriend silly relieves me of my responsibility towards her. I am not free to smell the roses and experience the joy of christ, I'm not free to forgive myself. It is not his forgiveness that makes it right in any way- even though I certainly appreciate it.

I don't disagree with you. While I know I am freely forgiven and my sins are paid for by Christ, I believe I am absolutely responsible for my actions and will answer to God at the Judgment Seat of Christ where some will be rewarded and some will suffer loss. Also in this life we must deal with the consequences of what we sow. Sin is never right in any way. It is terrible. I am not glossing over sin. Its our sin, its our fault, we are one hundred percent responsible. Christ paid a heavy price for our sin so we can be reconciled to God when we humbly come to him confessing our sin. I am saying I believe we can be forgiven by God and be saved. The worst sinner can be saved if he calls upon God. We can only try to repair the damages we have caused to others and learn from it and move on. But we can move on and we can be happy, and I think God wants us to be. That is why he said to forget the past and press upward and onward.

 

[Commoner]

I don't disagree with you. While I know I am freely forgiven and my sins are paid for by Christ, I believe I am absolutely responsible for my actions...

Ok...

...and will answer to God at the Judgment Seat of Christ where some will be rewarded and some will suffer loss. Also in this life we must deal with the consequences of what we sow. Sin is never right in any way. It is terrible. I am not glossing over sin. Its our sin, its our fault, we are one hundred percent responsible. Christ paid a heavy price for our sin so we can be reconciled to God when we humbly come to him confessing our sin.

Sure, it was necessary for a deity to have his son killed so that he could forgive humanity for what they had done to him (what could you possibly do to an allpowerful being?), which he of course knew they would have. That's probably the most absurd thing in the NT. Not once have I ever had to sacrifice a son (let's just glance over the striking immorality of such an action for now) or anything else in order to forgive anyone. And I'm far from perfect. Yet the deity had no better way of going about it? You know, snap of the finger, maybe an extended lecture on ethics, something like that? No? Are you sure this is the same guy that could "think" entire universes into existence?

And this forgiveness, it's completely irrelevant. Absolutely nothing had changed, no wrongs righted, no dead children brought back to life, no - but you got your friend back, good. Makes no difference to anyone else though. You've made not a single step in the right direction yet.

I am saying I believe we can be forgiven by God and be saved. The worst sinner can be saved if he calls upon God. We can only try to repair the damages we have caused to others and learn from it and move on. But we can move on and we can be happy, and I think God wants us to be. That is why he said to forget the past and press upward and onward.

What does god have to do with it? Like you said, there is no getting past the fact that you are responsible for your actions. Your guilt cannot be taken away by a third party. As I've said - it's great if your friends are still your friends (whether they're fellow primates, imaginary friends or super powerful who-knows-whats) even after you mess up really, really badly - but what that has to do with the topic at hand eludes me... Most you can say is, if you not only mess up, but also lose your friends as a consequence, it'll be harder to bounce back. To my mind you're solving a problem you've created yourself - or if you want, God is solving a problem he had created - and all he wants in return is "faith".

 

[Jainarayan]

I don't believe in sin and forgiveness in the Abrahamic sense. I do believe in karma. God does not punish or reward us for our evil or good deeds. Karma does that.

 

[javajo]

Ok...

Sure, it was necessary for a deity to have his son killed so that he could forgive humanity for what they had done to him (what could you possibly do to an allpowerful being?), which he of course knew they would have. That's probably the most absurd thing in the NT. Not once have I ever had to sacrifice a son (let's just glance over the striking immorality of such an action for now) or anything else in order to forgive anyone. And I'm far from perfect. Yet the deity had no better way of going about it? You know, snap of the finger, maybe an extended lecture on ethics, something like that? No? Are you sure this is the same guy that could "think" entire universes into existence?

And this forgiveness, it's completely irrelevant. Absolutely nothing had changed, no wrongs righted, no dead children brought back to life, no - but you got your friend back, good. Makes no difference to anyone else though. You've made not a single step in the right direction yet.

What does god have to do with it? Like you said, there is no getting past the fact that you are responsible for your actions. Your guilt cannot be taken away by a third party. As I've said - it's great if your friends are still your friends (whether they're fellow primates, imaginary friends or super powerful who-knows-whats) even after you mess up really, really badly - but what that has to do with the topic at hand eludes me... Most you can say is, if you not only mess up, but also lose your friends as a consequence, it'll be harder to bounce back. To my mind you're solving a problem you've created yourself - or if you want, God is solving a problem he had created - and all he wants in return is "faith".

OK. I see we are definitely not on the same page here. I can try to share what I believe. Who am I to know the mind of God? What I understand is that according to the Bible, God is infinitely holy and just. He cannot let sin go unpunished and the penalty of sin is death. So its a very bad situation, as all have sinned. So, how can a just God reconcile us to himself and still be just toward sin? Sin must be paid for or God is no longer just. Like if we catch a murderer and don't imprison him justice is not served. God knew the penalty must be paid or justice is not served. So, he paid the penalty for us and freely pardons all who trust him that he did that. Paul put it this way:

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 2 Cor. 5:21, Romans 11:32-33

 

[javajo]

God does not punish or reward us for our evil or good deeds. Karma does that.

If your god does not punish sin, then your god is not just. I want a fair and just god who brings justice to the wicked and reward to the righteous.

 

[Jainarayan]

Karma is one of the laws of the universe, and the one which governs punishment and reward. It's a concept that is admittedly lost on western thinking. Abrahamic religions are based on God Himself dispensing reward and punishment. To us, God is neither just nor unjust. God is pure bliss which we work towards joining with (liberation from rebirths).

A "sin" I might commit is to mindlessly kill something, or even refuse to help another person or being. That act is a karmic sin. Depending on my karmic "scorecard", I may be punished or rewarded in my next rebirth by either being reborn as a cockroach or as a person with all great forune in life. This could go on for millions or billions of births. It's karma (there are actually several categories of karma) that governs my punishment or reward.

We don't believe in a Hell or Heaven as you do; what Heaven (Svarga) and Hell (Naraka) we have are temporary locations where we await rebirth based on our previous lives. They're spiritual "waiting rooms" for the next incarnation.