Free Will and Fate

[atanu]

Personally, determinism makes sense to me. Intuitively I am leaning heavily towards destiny through determinism. But, Im not 100% sure. Perhaps if science develops to the point where we can study the soul we may be able to make significant progress on the question of whether we have even a little free will.
Would you prefer a deterministic reality or one in which you have free will?

I would prefer a deterministic reality. Reality strikes me as incredibly awesome and beautiful if I consider it as a great 'machine'. A reality of free will seems ugly to me. The difference, for the most part, is about life. For example, in a deterministic world I can consider a terrible murderer and say that it was his destiny to do it. Forgiveness and acceptance become easier when our lives are destined. On the other hand, consider a rich snob who mistreats people and has his nose high in the air all the time. When I consider this person from a free will perspective, that he has made 'true' freewill choices to be the way he is, he strikes me as incredibly grotesque.

Hi
Thanks for the post. I believe that free will and fate follow each other. The concepts of free will and fate only apply to realms of mind and body -- as analysis after the facts. These two terms are probably meaningless in reality, which is said to be actionless.

 

[atanu]

We have Freewill, but our Freewill affects another's Freewill.

Thank you SOA.

In Hindu scriptures there are two related verses:

As long as there is another fear reigns.

One who sees any difference here goes from death to death.

​

Thank you.

 

[atanu]

So, is the living being just a puppet?

 

[DinChild]

Personally, determinism makes sense to me. For example, in a deterministic world I can consider a terrible murderer and say that it was his destiny to do it. Forgiveness and acceptance become easier when our lives are destined. On the other hand, consider a rich snob who mistreats people and has his nose high in the air all the time. When I consider this person from a free will perspective, that he has made 'true' freewill choices to be the way he is, he strikes me as incredibly grotesque.

Consider the most recent case of Casey Anthony and her 2-year-old daughter. Tell me -- show me -- CONVINCE ME where destiny fits in to this plan. Casey lives on to collect hundreds of thousands of dollars from the public who see her now; some as a celebrity, and some as a point of morbid curiosity. Whoever SEES her, she makes money. She profits from the death of her daughter. And if you're even the slightest bit educated in the case, and even the slightest bit intelligent, you'd see that this is wrong. And determinism is a damn joke. In your comparison, you view rich snobs who simply mistreat people as grotesque when dealing with those who commit unspeakable murderers.

Free will, as far as I'm concerned, exists. Because no pure, whole-loving god, could or would ever allow the senseless murder of a child. Much less the profiting of said murder to the killer. This sounds like Man's work. And if you sit there, and believe this is all God's doing, then I have nothing to say to you. Delusions. Insanity. Hallucinations. Nothing can possibly condone the acts that led to Caylee's death.

 

[idea]

nature vs. nurture... just robots following the programming of our DNA to react to our environment? but then I don't think our potential is limited by where we grew up, or by the color of our skin. We are all so much more than just nature/nurture....

we have the ability to act, not just react...
our ability to act - to create - to change our environment rather than allowing our environment to change us - the ability to act is a beautiful gift - for those who have the "will"power to use free will.

Who's to say that cherished ability to act isn't just a complicated reaction? The brain is a pretty awesome computer.

you really think that our actions can be determined by the color of our skin, and the neighborhood we grew up in? ... because that is what you are saying, and it is very racist - it ignores all the examples we have that our character / interests / actions are NOT controlled by our DNA/skin color, nor are they controlled by our environment. We all have the freedom to rise above (or below) our environment and whatever family lines we happen to come through.

We do in fact have the ability to "act" and not just "react".

It's not complicated at all - our actions are created through much more than mere nature/nurture - they come from our spirit - which is not confined by our DNA or our neighborhood...

 

[idea]

Personally, determinism makes sense to me.

Consider the most recent case of Casey Anthony and her 2-year-old daughter. Tell me -- show me -- CONVINCE ME where destiny fits in to this plan.

I believe in self-determinism - ie - God knows everything including the future = the future is set in stone - but we are the ones who set our own future in stone, so it is our will that controls it.... ex: I can read the TV guide and "know" what will be on, but that does not mean that I "caused" it - I believe that we are our own cause.

the cause/effect chain - I also believe that we are eternal beings with no beginning, no ultimate cause to trace everything back to, that our spirit is as old as God, and God is cleaning up a mess He did not make... (the word "create in the Bible is a mistranslation - should read "transform") that we were not ex-Nihlo created by God, part of us is independent, hence our independent will...

Robots have a beginning, they have no free will because everything they do can be traced back to how they were created...
Only that which exists without beginning has a free will... our free will is proof of our eternal nature.

Is there a beginning to all of it? consider the conservation laws - conservation of mass / energy - nothing comes from nothing - therefore nothing has a beginning... everything has always been, and always will be, in one form or another...


29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency(free will) of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is bplainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 31)

as much as we would like to blame someone else and escape all personal responsibility... eventually everyone will hopefully recognize that our actions are our own - we are responsible for who we are.

 

[839311]

Consider the most recent case of Casey Anthony and her 2-year-old daughter. Tell me -- show me -- CONVINCE ME where destiny fits in to this plan.

With this and anything else, determinism more or less says that all the matter and energy in the universe acts according to the laws of physics, and Humans being made up entirely of matter and energy, we are thus destined.

And determinism is a damn joke.

How so? Why does the concept make you so angry?

Isn't it easier to forgive Casey Anthony if she is simply living out her destiny? I think it is. Since your Christian, Im assuming forgiveness ranks high on your list.

Personally I don't believe in God, but I think its possible he exists. There are a few ways around the problem of pain and evil that I have come across which doesn't make God look like he is an evil lunatic, or indifferent. One is that some 'beings' aren't really conscious, and God is controlling everything in our world in such a way that we get the experience of living in such a harsh world, but in reality it is much less harsh than it appears.

And if you sit there, and believe this is all God's doing, then I have nothing to say to you.

I don't believe it, but I do think its possible. Perhaps our God, if he exists, is cruel. And he may be coming for you...or me lol.

 

[DinChild]

I believe in self-determinism - ie - God knows everything including the future = the future is set in stone - but we are the ones who set our own future in stone, so it is our will that controls it.... ex: I can read the TV guide and "know" what will be on, but that does not mean that I "caused" it - I believe that we are our own cause.

the cause/effect chain - I also believe that we are eternal beings with no beginning, no ultimate cause to trace everything back to, that our spirit is as old as God, and God is cleaning up a mess He did not make... (the word "create in the Bible is a mistranslation - should read "transform") that we were not ex-Nihlo created by God, part of us is independent, hence our independent will...

Robots have a beginning, they have no free will because everything they do can be traced back to how they were created...
Only that which exists without beginning has a free will... our free will is proof of our eternal nature.

Is there a beginning to all of it? consider the conservation laws - conservation of mass / energy - nothing comes from nothing - therefore nothing has a beginning... everything has always been, and always will be, in one form or another...


29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency(free will) of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is bplainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 31)

as much as we would like to blame someone else and escape all personal responsibility... eventually everyone will hopefully recognize that our actions are our own - we are responsible for who we are.

I honestly have NO idea what to respond to. You haven't responded to ANYTHING regarding the life of an innocent child. You claim the future is set in stone, in which case, Caylee Anthony was destined to die. By this same logic, the murderer, (her mother,) was allowed to walk free with hundreds of thousands of dollars. I swear to you, there is no reason to confuse this issue, and throwing ENERGY into it is wholly counter productive.

 

[DinChild]

With this and anything else, determinism more or less says that all the matter and energy in the universe acts according to the laws of physics, and Humans being made up entirely of matter and energy, we are thus destined.

Then I hope you're satisfied with the energy. 'Cause if you are, you're a pathetic waste of energy.

How so? Why does the concept make you so angry?

Isn't it easier to forgive Casey Anthony if she is simply living out her destiny? I think it is. Since your Christian, Im assuming forgiveness ranks high on your list.

Personally I don't believe in God, but I think its possible he exists. There are a few ways around the problem of pain and evil that I have come across which doesn't make God look like he is an evil lunatic, or indifferent. One is that some 'beings' aren't really conscious, and God is controlling everything in our world in such a way that we get the experience of living in such a harsh world, but in reality it is much less harsh than it appears.

I am NOT Christian. NO ONE is forgiving that *****! And if you think ANY Christian can sit by and accept Casey Anthony's actions as destiny is as wholly evil as any Nazi during World War II. Your argument is so damn disgusting to me, and I'm atheist. Forgiveness for those who murder a child? It's their destiny? Are you kidding me? God, should he exist, would damn you for your convictions.....or perhaps not. God is capable of the most unsavory of acts...

 

[idea]

I honestly have NO idea what to respond to. You haven't responded to ANYTHING regarding the life of an innocent child. You claim the future is set in stone, in which case, Caylee Anthony was destined to die. By this same logic, the murderer, (her mother,) was allowed to walk free with hundreds of thousands of dollars. I swear to you, there is no reason to confuse this issue, and throwing ENERGY into it is wholly counter productive.

the point is - God is not responsible in any way for the evils which are in the world. He is cleaning up a mess He did not create.....

thankfully we are eternal beings, death is not the end, this life a mere raindrop in the oceans of eternity. we are tested and given freedom to prove who we are. those who abuse that freedom will have their freedom taken away in the eternities, those who show themselves worthy will be given infinite and eternal freedom. freedom - free will - is a gift, an eternal gift for those who can handle it.

 

[DinChild]

the point is - God is not responsible in any way for the evils which are in the world. He is cleaning up a mess He did not create.....

thankfully we are eternal beings, death is not the end, this life a mere raindrop in the oceans of eternity. we are tested and given freedom to prove who we are. those who abuse that freedom will have their freedom taken away in the eternities, those who show themselves worthy will be given infinite and eternal freedom. freedom - free will - is a gift, an eternal gift for those who can handle it.

I think you have a terribly bastardized version of free will wrapped in your brain. Believe what you want, but nothing you can say will justify the wrong-doings of the events I provided. I don't care how colorfully you sugar-coat it. God or no God, a life two years in the making didn't deserve what came upon her. And honestly, your attempt to justify it is disturbing to me.

 

[Absolute Zero]

Humans are ****** up

 

[Absolute Zero]

Also humans have free will but I would go as far as to say costumized to live in a self sustaing universe etc....etc absent of God

 

[DinChild]

Also humans have free will but I would go as far as to say costumized to live in a self sustaing universe etc....etc absent of God

Free will exists completely outside of omniscient means. So...yes, you're right

 

[PolyHedral]

I think you have a terribly bastardized version of free will wrapped in your brain. Believe what you want, but nothing you can say will justify the wrong-doings of the events I provided. I don't care how colorfully you sugar-coat it. God or no God, a life two years in the making didn't deserve what came upon her. And honestly, your attempt to justify it is disturbing to me.

...Deserve? The concept of 'deserve' does not even exist in the context of determinism.

 

[DinChild]

...Deserve? The concept of 'deserve' does not even exist in the context of determinism.

Then you're right! No matter what, that two-year old was destined to die by her mother's hand for no other reason than she didn't want her. Common sense is staring you in the face. Deserving or not, a God who determines the life of a two-year old to die is not the God I want to follow. Plain and simple.

 

[atanu]

I believe in self-determinism - ie -
...........
Is there a beginning to all of it? consider the conservation laws - conservation of mass / energy - nothing comes from nothing - therefore nothing has a beginning... everything has always been, and always will be, in one form or another...

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. ----(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 31)

as much as we would like to blame someone else and escape all personal responsibility... eventually everyone will hopefully recognize that our actions are our own - we are responsible for who we are.

I like this post, Idea. I think, there can be a beginning of ignorance or enlightenment, although souls are without beginning as is the Brahman.

 

[atanu]

the point is - God is not responsible in any way for the evils which are in the world. He is cleaning up a mess He did not create.....

Why then absolute cleaning is not done?

----- those who show themselves worthy will be given infinite and eternal freedom. freedom - free will - is a gift, an eternal gift for those who can handle it.

What that free will means? Is it freedom from death? Or freedom from causal laws of nature? Or what?

 

[atanu]

An interlude;

I do not think that a 'born being' is absolutely bound, like a machine, to causal determininism, which is of nature.

Are we puppets? At a level, the body will lose life -- that is a certainty. Also, we see many automatic uncontrollable reactions. Each of us also know that, howsoever loudly we may claim that we were free to chose etc., the fact is that all those are thoughts that occur after the fact. So, we are puppets -- puppets to nature's laws.

However, there are evidences that we can, through yoga or something similar, observe and control our reactions.What makes the difference then?

 

[idav]

An interlude;

I do not think that a 'born being' is absolutely bound, like a machine, to causal determininism, which is of nature.

Are we puppets? At a level, the body will lose life -- that is a certainty. Also, we see many automatic uncontrollable reactions. Each of us also know that, howsoever loudly we may claim that we were free to chose etc., the fact is that all those are thoughts that occur after the fact. So, we are puppets -- puppets to nature's laws.

However, there are evidences that we can, through yoga or something similar, observe and control our reactions.What makes the difference then?

We are also caused to do things by outside influences. We are taught how to meditate and influenced into changing our course. Like a guru who puts you on the correct path would be a cause. You are caused to try and control it and the direction we "choose" to take is based on our influences. IOW we have a reason to think as we do and have a reason for every choice we make. If we didn't have good enough reason we wouldn't be influenced enough to do it.