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Free Will and Fate
- Thread starter atanu
- Start date
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Question Everything
ie - you would have God "force" us to comply? take away our free will? To rape us of our free will would mean an eternal halt to our progression... love / charity / joy all the important things in life can only come from within - freely given from a free will - these things cannot be forced... we are in the midst of the cleaning process, by the end we will all hopefully have the experiences/knowledge needed - I'm optimisitic for how it will all turn out
. freedom is the earned reward of good work.
you earn the freedom to play the piano through years of practice
you earn the freedom to love and be loved through becoming selfless and charitable
you earn the freedom education brings through study, becoming meek and teachable
you earn the freedom to know God through trying to become like Him
captivity the just reward of lacitude and indifference.
free will is the result of "will"power, perserverance, patience, work, steadfastness...
idea
Question Everything
I think giving this type of freedom is impossible -
free to murder, to steal, freedom to burn and plunder? Freedom to turn others into slaves? everyone cannot simultaneously have this type of freedom... true freedom is earned, and given to those who show themselves worthy to receive it. To gain freedom is a wonderful incentive to work / be diligent / gain the dignity and joy that hard-earned accomplishment brings.
I agree that we are governed by minor or major external influences. The forces of nature appear as stupendous for an ego. But are you not using a dualistic model here? What is the external influence? Is any influence separate from our own mind? No.
Actually, there are three stages. A child does not fear electic shocks because it has never receieved a shock. But after receieving a shock, he becomes fearful. Then there is a third stage when the same person can get the knowledge to master electricity and loses the fear.
Most of us are in the middle fearful stage. We imagine that nature is separate and opposed to 'me'. We forget that the same nature is within us also and that we actually influence it by our desires, thoughts, and actions.
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My god how specific and unnecessary people can inflate a basic concept from "external" influences and intrinsic nature and whatnot. Freewill isn't so complicated as this dialogue is building toward. All of this extra exposition only serves to muddle the issue; freedom of will is dependent on the freedom to do what we will -- what we intend to accomplish; the choices we make. Irrespective of the reasons we make said decisions (because they simply do NOT matter) it's our freedom to do so. The only question people should be asking is WHY the concept of freedom of will even exists? Is it biblical based? Is the freedom of will a god given right? According to many a theist, it is. But let's take it out of religious context for a moment and look at the reality...is there freedom of choice? Yes. And it doesn't matter what prior circumstances "push" or "influence" us in any one direction. Why am I so certain? Because in a religious context, you have to also accept that god is omniscient. The future is determined. Ask yourself, where's your freedom of choice now, under these conditions? How can you possibly hope to defy god's plan without the freedom to direct your own life? If anything, this is a thought experiment, and an interesting one at that, but in the realm of intellectual thinkers, this "quandary" is elementary.
I did not understand. My fault. But will be obliged if you could restate your position.
The external influence is a like a fish "choosing" to swim down stream. Sure it is still swimming on it's own but for the most part very much guided. If it did choose to swim against the current it would have reason to do so like food or a mate or something of the sort. It is all related to the material including our own thoughts. We are driven to eat, sleep and mate and everything we do or don't do is motivated by these needs that we are born with. The same nature that drives us on the inside is the same as the nature of external influences.
That is good. Now, nature is not a stand alone thing. Nature is always of something.
I reiterate that i mentioned stages of ignorance-enlightenment that you did not comment upon. I think, because, in my state, I am driven, may not mean that that is the situation with all.
When, instead of remaining separate from nature, one integrates oneself, there will be no question of free will or choice. These two are concepts from the notion of reality of individual I opposed to the environment-nature. As long as one is an individual and a doer, both free will and consequent fate will drive the individual, who however harbors the notion of free will and free choice.
So, I am saying that under the mode of ignorance, one is always driven by circumstances and preferences. But on enlightenment, both the notions will lose their meaning.
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The ego would think that wouldn't it. Sure we learn but what you described in stages is simply a cause eventually becoming a culmination of many causes.
No. In singularity there is no cause or effect. Cause and effect arise after subject-object separation.
When you get into the basic building blocks it is just atoms working off of cause and effect due to coming into contact with energy. Same thing in our brains.
OMG. After reading the Bible, one asks whose daughter Jesus was? See. You are not intelligent. Your intelligence and your existence is product of certain atoms and their interactions. Now, with that borrowed intelligence from atoms, you are observing the atoms and explaining them. Further, you are saying "There is my source".
How do you know that the borrowed intelligence is giving you a correct view?
Is not your saying the above almost equivalen to the situation when your mirror image tells you "You, shut up. I am the reality, a product of the mirror. There is no reality in you."
I hope, one day you will be able to note the absurdity.
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On the other hand, I might have understood you wrongly. Do you mean to say that whatever we see are just play of matter and energy and that we are distinct from the phenomena?
I doubt that you meant this.
Oh I'm well aware of the absurdity of matter examining itself. I'm still contemplating this paradox. It isn't any more absurd than your own thoughts (ego) telling you that your separate from the material universe your bound to.
See. You are not intelligent. Your intelligence and your existence is product of certain atoms and their interactions. Now, with that borrowed intelligence from atoms, you are observing the atoms and explaining them. Further, you are saying "There is my source".
How do you know that the borrowed intelligence is giving you a correct view?
Is not your saying the above almost equivalen to the situation when your mirror image tells you "You, shut up. I am the reality, a product of the mirror. There is no reality in you."
I hope, one day you will be able to note the absurdity.
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On the other hand, I might have understood you wrongly. Do you mean to say that whatever we see are just play of matter and energy and that we are distinct from the phenomena?
I doubt that you meant this.
I think that a different explanation of determinism could help here. There seems (at least from my reading) a misunderstanding to an extent of how it "works". Yes there is the aspect of nature, ie your genes, that influences your desires. However, determinism must also take into account the nurture aspect. When I say nuture, I don't necessarily mean how you were raised, but really every experience you've ever had in this life. It's hard to argue that between nature and nurture in these terms the way you think and the basis you use to form your decisions isn't shaped/determined at least partially outside of your volition. Now one has to decide whether they think that this means that all your choices are also shaped by said factors. IE you may have the choice in appearance, but if your choice is based on your past experiences and your blood then is it really a choice? Even after one's become "enlightened" as some have been putting it, one can argue that the only reason they make decisions opposite of what they would have before is based on the fact that they had an experience (whether through reading this forum or meditation or etc.). So have they really escaped their destiny/determinism? It would appear that they are just more aware of it, not able to control it.
I don't know that I necessarily believe in all this...but I could definitely see it as a possiblity. Personally, I don't like the idea that I'm not in charge of my own life and the decisions I make, but I understand the position.
-Benhamine
I don't know that I necessarily believe in all this...but I could definitely see it as a possiblity. Personally, I don't like the idea that I'm not in charge of my own life and the decisions I make, but I understand the position.
-Benhamine
No man. No. In your paradox, there is no underlying intelligence but only that emanating from so-called atoms that you have observed with that created intelligence. It is akin to a movie character asserting that there is no movie director.
On the other hand, in my understanding, there is real intelligence, which is the basis of all observations, including of the ego; and has the power to shine on its own to illuminate dark minds.
But enlightened have no fate and no destiny.
Let me put it to you in a different way as a philosophical thought. Atoms are "aware" and given enough complexity from the cellular level to a human being gives rise to consciousness. In this case spirit would be part of the atom, one and the same, spirit part of the basic building blocks from the beginning.
No problem. That brings in Consciousness to the fundamental level, provided you realise that atoms that you see are just representational.
Can you argue that an enlightened person would act the way they do if they weren't enlightened, or rather that the mere act of becoming enlightened hasn't altered their decision structure?
Determinism (at least how I view it) isn't necessarily saying there's a predetermined path in that someone (a god) could see what the end result will be, but determined in that in all reality the person doesn't have choice over what they are doing. The thought of choice is merely the result of eons of actions happening putting everything in place to shape how that person has interacted with the world and in turn shaped their thought process. An enlightened being would not be able to break from this because their knowledge has only come through that chain of processes. They could however, become aware of the fact that they are cogs in the machine.
Like I said previously I understand this position but am more inclined to think that determinism works to the point of limiting our options but in the end we are the one's that make the decisions. I don't like determinism for the reason it removes responsibility from the person. That being said, I think there are those that fall into the unfortunate scenario of giving into their determinism and living based on instinct alone. However, I believe it's their choice not to think...if that makes any sense haha.
-Benhamine