Free Will and Fate

[PolyHedral]

No. IMO, it applies both ways.

Wait, what? Since when did Hinduism imply time travel?:areyoucra

 

[atanu]

Having perfect knowledge wouldn't change that. Even if you could decide to shape all of reality into whatever form you wanted, the whole process of making that decision, your memories and emotions, your intelligence and experience, your intuition and wisdom, every single thought you would have, are all determined.

Determinism states that everything has a destiny. No ifs, ands, or buts. What you are saying here is simply the idea of free will, which is the other side of the coin.

Exactly. The only exception is when it is known with certainty that actions are of nature and not in Self.

 

[Willamena]

Wait, what? Since when did Hinduism imply time travel?:areyoucra

Hinduism does it a much simpler way than travel... they just realize the 'past' and 'future' now.

 

[Willamena]

I understand but that has to do with what already happened not what will happen.

If one were not ignorant to the cause before it happened (future) then one could change it before it happens.

If one were omnipresent, then one is there before, during and after "it happens," simultaneously; additionally, being omnipotent, one is simultaneously creating all the events that occur in the entire span of the universe in what is, for this being, a single instant. In essence, there is no circumstance in which 'your circumstance' occurs that is not circumstance occuring. What opportunity is there for any change?
(Please, look up opportunity in the dictionary before you reply.)

 

[atanu]

I understand but that has to do with what already happened not what will happen.

If one were not ignorant to the cause before it happened (future) then one could change it before it happens.

If one were omnipresent, then one is there before, during and after "it happens," simultaneously; additionally, being omnipotent, one is simultaneously creating all the events that occur in the entire span of the universe in what is, for this being, a single instant. In essence, there is no circumstance in which 'your circumstance' occurs that is not circumstance occuring. What opportunity is there for any change?
(Please, look up opportunity in the dictionary before you reply.)

Thanks Willamena

Let me state this in a linear fashion as well.

Action has the nature of reaction (we call it fruit, to make it sound sweeter). Even an omniscient doer will have to face causal determinism. Changing an action will just generate different reactions.

In terms of Hinduism, Rudra is slumberless one, who is swatantra - free. Yet, while in nature it follows savitur-the person in sun. Consciousness (Rudra) is free. But consciousness when engrossed in its prakriti (nature) has to follow the nature, in different roles.

This will be better understood in terms of Panentheism.

 

[idav]

According to determinism every choice you make is determined, just as every other aspect of reality is determined.

Having perfect knowledge wouldn't change that. Even if you could decide to shape all of reality into whatever form you wanted, the whole process of making that decision, your memories and emotions, your intelligence and experience, your intuition and wisdom, every single thought you would have, are all determined.

Determinism states that everything has a destiny. No ifs, ands, or buts. What you are saying here is simply the idea of free will, which is the other side of the coin.

In determinism everything is caused to happen and on into the future. It doesn't mean the future is set in stone it just means the futre will be a result of whatever causes it. Choice implies there are possibilities which will affect what future becomes a reality. Being aware of each possibility based on cause and effect allows a person to have free will in a deterministic reality.

 

[idav]

If one were omnipresent, then one is there before, during and after "it happens," simultaneously; additionally, being omnipotent, one is simultaneously creating all the events that occur in the entire span of the universe in what is, for this being, a single instant. In essence, there is no circumstance in which 'your circumstance' occurs that is not circumstance occuring. What opportunity is there for any change?
(Please, look up opportunity in the dictionary before you reply.)

I have been speaking in terms of omniscience. Omniscience would include the knowledge of what could happen if someone made a different choice. In which case omnipresence would include variations of reality.

 

[PolyHedral]

In determinism everything is caused to happen and on into the future. It doesn't mean the future is set in stone it just means the futre will be a result of whatever causes it. Choice implies there are possibilities which will affect what future becomes a reality. Being aware of each possibility based on cause and effect allows a person to have free will in a deterministic reality.

Not if they also understand their own thought process.

 

[Benhamine]

The blue is more or less correct. The red is wrong -- since there are no separate physical places -- at least not evident. The main theme is that ignorance and karma (work, which inevitably leads to fruits that must be faced) are without beginning. But that is only ignorance. Knowledge is that which confirms that one is not the doer and is never tainted.

So, the idea of Free Will and Destiny apply only to the stage of ignorance.

So then in this enlightened state the person doesn't make any actions...but they're a part of this world? What are they then? I've never fully understood this part of Hinduism. I apologize if my ignorance is offensive

-Benhamine

 

[atanu]

So then in this enlightened state the person doesn't make any actions...but they're a part of this world? What are they then? I've never fully understood this part of Hinduism. I apologize if my ignorance is offensive

-Benhamine

It is a valid question. 'Part of this world' again does not convey correctly, however.

All objects exist in space. Does space become part of objects? Or does space really become fragmented?

 

[atanu]

Bump.

I understand that for a doer who exercises free will, the destiny is inevitable. But for the non doer, the Free Will and Destiny do not apply.

 

[PolyHedral]

It is a valid question. 'Part of this world' again does not convey correctly, however.

All objects exist in space. Does space become part of objects? Or does space really become fragmented?

Neither?

 

[idav]

Not if they also understand their own thought process.

Even more so when that much is known. How does more knowledge make someone more of a slave?

 

[PolyHedral]

Even more so when that much is known. How does more knowledge make someone more of a slave?

Because you know exactly what will happen, and exactly what you will do to stop it, ad infinitum.

 

[idav]

Because you know exactly what will happen, and exactly what you will do to stop it, ad infinitum.

Kinda why I think of it in degrees. It should be obvious that someone who knows has more actual choice than someone who is oblivious.

 

[idav]

Having perfect knowledge wouldn't change that. Even if you could decide to shape all of reality into whatever form you wanted, the whole process of making that decision, your memories and emotions, your intelligence and experience, your intuition and wisdom, every single thought you would have, are all determined.

How is it that even an all knowing god that can shape their own reality doesn't have free will? The universe being determined by cause and effect is trumped by knowledge of it. Knowledge would give the advantage of being able to influence or interfere with the cause. If a cause is interfered with it would mean a different fate. Then the chain of events would turn into a different chain but still very much subject to cause.

 

[DinChild]

How is it that even an all knowing god that can shape their own reality doesn't have free will? The universe being determined by cause and effect is trumped by knowledge of it. Knowledge would give the advantage of being able to influence or interfere with the cause. If a cause is interfered with it would mean a different fate. Then the chain of events would turn into a different chain but still very much subject to cause.

This doesn't make any sense at all.

First of all, God "doesn't interfere." Or, never will again. He remains omniscient, and as a result, all things are determined. Second, if God WOULD interfere, that would fly in the face of free will. By the very fact that God is supposedly omniscient, free will is rendered moot. Free will exists solely in an atheist world view. Or rather, one where an axiom doesn't readily claim to be omniscient.

EDIT: I'm not sure if I'm arguing your comment or 839311's.

 

[Benhamine]

It is a valid question. 'Part of this world' again does not convey correctly, however.

All objects exist in space. Does space become part of objects? Or does space really become fragmented?

:thud:

My brain's melting haha. I've never been able to comprehend this aspect of Hinduism and I think it's a big part of it turning me off. So the enlightened being...gets there by doing good karma (work)...and once they reach that state then they...what...what happens to them?

-Benhamine

 

[idea]

Free will.

Believing you aren't subject to causality is just a cheery lie.

not an escape from causality - Free will simply means that you are your own cause.

 

[idea]

This doesn't make any sense at all.

First of all, God "doesn't interfere." Or, never will again. He remains omniscient, and as a result, all things are determined. Second, if God WOULD interfere, that would fly in the face of free will. By the very fact that God is supposedly omniscient, free will is rendered moot. Free will exists solely in an atheist world view. Or rather, one where an axiom doesn't readily claim to be omniscient.

EDIT: I'm not sure if I'm arguing your comment or 839311's.

determinism does not kill free will. It's ok if the future is set in stone - the point of free will is "who" sets it in stone. Just because God knows what we are going to do, does not mean that it isn't our choice. I can know what will be on TV tonight, but that does not mean I am responsible for it.... God knows, but we are the ones who choose it - it is our own choice.

re: cause/effect... where does it start? what is the original cause?.... we believe that there is no beginning, that our spirits are eternal with no beginning and no end... no beginning = we are self-existent, we are our own cause - this is the root of our free will.