PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
What is "you?"
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Free Will and Fate
- Thread starter atanu
- Start date
But you don't know what will be on TV tonight, you only know the present/past, the schedule of shows for tonight. You don't know the TV episode or movie until you watch it; if you did know it in the same sense that you know it after you've watched it, you wouldn't have to watch it because it would be a "done deal."
If God knows what we will choose, then what we would choose is a "done deal."
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
But is the future unpredictable in principle?
So do you think the more knowledge we have of future events the more free will goes out the window. How would being oblivious change it if it can be predictable with knowledge?
Yes.
logician
Well-Known Member
Only with a model so large the creation of it would be impossible, i.e. in practicality the future can never be predicted with certanly. As in predicting the weather, small changes now can have big effects down the road, i.e. the butterfly effect.
Ha. Ha. I am not surprised. We all think, talk and act from the premise of "I am this body". And we attribute that to all other objects (bodies) that we see. But a Buddha is not the body. Buddha is all pervading intelligence (Buddhi means intelligence). When Jesus is said to be the bread and wine, the meaning is same. But an onlooker like us inevitably will see Buddha as the localised body.
Let me tell a story. There was a guru called Ramana in India . Now his devotees wrote a beautiful song called Ramana Sadguru (true teacher) in his praise, which had the following refrain at the end of every para:
Refrain:[FONT=cd9800358d99aea2059a1510#3c0f00]Ramana Sadguru, Ramana Sadguru,[/FONT]
Ramana Sadguru, my Lord!
Ramana Sadguru, Ramana Sadguru,
Ramana Sadguru, my Lord!
The refrain is tantalising and makes one automatically clap and sing along. So, once when the song was being sung, devotees were dismayed that Shri Ramana was himself singing and clapping in ecstacy. People later asked Shri Ramana as to why he was singing his own glory?
Shri Ramana said "Why should I not sing of Ramana who is all pervading? You think that Ramana is this body and so you are perplexed."
(Ramana means the one who is blissful in every Heart. It is another name of "I" less Self).
The point is that when the falsity of ego is experienced, there remains no separate individual. But as long as the body-mind is there, it can be utilised to join again and again with the all pervading reality that is of the nature of indivisible existence-knowledge-bliss.
Sorry for causing you so much confusion. But what does Buddha nature or Buddha Dhatu mean to you? (Now what sign of amazement you will make? I am curious.
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Absolutely. Both definitions of "future" and "past" rely on a fixed known reference point, "now."
I do prefer the linear time model just so my head doesn't go splodey.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
What's the problem with defining "now?"
You create 'now' and cover up the unborn 'now'.
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idea
Question Everything
knowing it, and causing it, are two different things not to be confused with one another... Whoever is in control of the "cause" is control of the will... We are our own cause, our mind is our own, and so it is our own will.
idea
Question Everything
I think time is an illusion - that looking through snapshots in time is like looking at different sides of a cube... the cube does not change, we just see different sides of it as we walk around - same with us - do we change? or just reveal different sides of our self as we walk around? - what we choose to do reveals the different sides - God sees everything already, we're the ones who do not see all the sides of our self yet...
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PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
The cube doesn't change, but that doesn't make 2-dimensional space an illusion.
Ha. Ha. I am not surprised. We all think, talk and act from the premise of "I am this body". And we attribute that to all other objects (bodies) that we see. But a Buddha is not the body. Buddha is all pervading intelligence (Buddhi means intelligence). When Jesus is said to be the bread and wine, the meaning is same. But an onlooker like us inevitably will see Buddha as the localised body.
Let me tell a story. There was a guru called Ramana in India . Now his devotees wrote a beautiful song called Ramana Sadguru (true teacher) in his praise, which had the following refrain at the end of every para:
Refrain:[FONT=cd9800358d99aea2059a1510#3c0f00]Ramana Sadguru, Ramana Sadguru,[/FONT]
Ramana Sadguru, my Lord!
Ramana Sadguru, Ramana Sadguru,
Ramana Sadguru, my Lord!
The refrain is tantalising and makes one automatically clap and sing along. So, once when the song was being sung, devotees were dismayed that Shri Ramana was himself singing and clapping in ecstacy. People later asked Shri Ramana as to why he was singing his own glory?
Shri Ramana said "Why should I not sing of Ramana who is all pervading? You think that Ramana is this body and so you are perplexed."
(Ramana means the one who is blissful in every Heart. It is another name of "I" less Self).
The point is that when the falsity of ego is experienced, there remains no separate individual. But as long as the body-mind is there, it can be utilised to join again and again with the all pervading reality that is of the nature of indivisible existence-knowledge-bliss.
Sorry for causing you so much confusion. But what does Buddha nature or Buddha Dhatu mean to you? (Now what sign of amazement you will make? I am curious.
Fantastically explained. I've always thought of enlightenment (obviously I'm not there yet
) as the point when one (I use this term loosely) realizes (and I mean truly realizes, so much that they know beyond a shadow of doubt) that there is no one and that we are all a part of everything and in that we pervade everything or all that there is. And that our detachment we may feel from other "beings" is merely an illusion. However, I think my vision of enlightenment is different from what you're saying. I feel as though what you were, at least initially describing, is a phsyical change to the person, not merely a realization.
-Benhamine
It is interesting to consider something outside of nature but in my view one must be part of nature in order to have any affect in it. Panentheism would make it easier to explain free will in the context of being outside of the laws but I'm not one that follows this concept. At the same time I don't feel that being pat of nature really makes one confined to it's laws because with consciousness comes rebellion. Though in that sense one is just battling the self but thats another matter.