Free will and omniscience?

[agent_smith]

I don't feel like typing an essay, so here goes...

If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what we are going to do.
If this is true, then why does God get angry, or pleased, after people do things? Surely he already knows what was going to happen?
Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have prevented it from happening (since a punishment is given to the sinner, God clearly didn't want it to happen).
A good example of this is Adam and Eve - God knew what was going to happen, but got angry and punished them for it??

"No, we have free will!" I hear you say.
That makes no difference. If God created us, he created our minds and our ability to choose and reason. Just like if we build a robot,the robot may be "choosing" what to do, but it will only do what the programmer designed it to do in different situations.
Still don't believe me? How about this: If I ran outside right now and got hit by a bus, it MUST have been part of "God's plan" for me to die at that moment. Therefore, he must know what I am going to "choose" to do.

There is only one possibility I can think of: that God must somehow retard his own knowledge of what choices we are going to make. But that would contradict him being an omnipotent God.

Anyway, back to my main point... can anyone solve this problem? The only solutions I see are:
1. God is imaginary (what I believe).
2. Free will is imaginary.
3. God is not all-knowing.

 

[tomspug]

You can get angry knowing that something is inevitable, can't you? How does omniscience eliminate the existence of emotions? The whole idea of God is that he is an unbiased judge that follows the law of the universe. As long as that law is known by the people it rests upon, it's their own fault if they receive judgment for breaking it. That's how it works in our country, so I think that it makes sense that God is just as unbiased as a judge in court. Does the existence of law eliminate the existence of free will?

 

[agent_smith]

But God DESIGNED the laws of the universe. Therefore he KNOWS what is going to happen.
Being "unbiased" is also a bit irrelevant, since God wrote the "rules", therefore it is completely his choice whether people have broken them.

 

[tomspug]

But God DESIGNED the laws of the universe. Therefore he KNOWS what is going to happen.
Being "unbiased" is also a bit irrelevant, since God wrote the "rules", therefore it is completely his choice whether people have broken them.

I don't really understand your logic. Could you elaborate?

How does creating the laws make him biased? And how does God knowing what's going to happen eliminate free will? If God is outside of time, it would be like him watching a videotape of a football game, knowing the outcome before it actually happens. Does that mean that the game was 'fixed' simply because someone was 'informed' (outside of time) about the outcome?

 

[Wandered Off]

The "existence" of a known future eliminates free will, IMO. In other words, the only way we could have free will is if the future could not be known. If it can be, then free will is only an illusion that arises from our own limited perspective.

I think the only way out is to have a "forward-limited omniscience" in which the future cannot be known because it does not exist. This has some implications of its own regarding whether God is bound by time.

I attempted to raise a similar question a while back...
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...would-foreknowledge-contradict-free-will.html

 

[agent_smith]

I don't really understand your logic. Could you elaborate?

How does creating the laws make him biased? And how does God knowing what's going to happen eliminate free will? If God is outside of time, it would be like him watching a videotape of a football game, knowing the outcome before it actually happens. Does that mean that the game was 'fixed' simply because someone was 'informed' (outside of time) about the outcome?

I never said God was biased, I just said him being "unbiased" is a meaningless statement.

For example: If I invent a new sport, and I am the umpire, how can my decisions ever be "wrong"? If I created the rules, it is MY decision what the rules are, and whether anyone else has broken them.
The same applies to God (if he exists) - since HE decided what is "wrong", and he is the only one judging us, how can he make possibly an "unfair" decision?

Back to the main point... I said God is omniscient, therefore he knows exactly what is going to happen. Not "because he created us, he knows what we are going to do".

 

[agent_smith]

I think the only way out is to have a "forward-limited omniscience" in which the future cannot be known because it does not exist. This has some implications of its own regarding whether God is bound by time.

Sounds like what I said about God retarding his own knowledge.
Also, since God is said to exist outside of time and space, that complicates things further for theists.

 

[Storm]

I don't feel like typing an essay, so here goes...

If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what we are going to do.
If this is true, then why does God get angry, or pleased, after people do things? Surely he already knows what was going to happen?
Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have prevented it from happening (since a punishment is given to the sinner, God clearly didn't want it to happen).
A good example of this is Adam and Eve - God knew what was going to happen, but got angry and punished them for it??

"No, we have free will!" I hear you say.
That makes no difference. If God created us, he created our minds and our ability to choose and reason. Just like if we build a robot,the robot may be "choosing" what to do, but it will only do what the programmer designed it to do in different situations.
Still don't believe me? How about this: If I ran outside right now and got hit by a bus, it MUST have been part of "God's plan" for me to die at that moment. Therefore, he must know what I am going to "choose" to do.

There is only one possibility I can think of: that God must somehow retard his own knowledge of what choices we are going to make. But that would contradict him being an omnipotent God.

Anyway, back to my main point... can anyone solve this problem? The only solutions I see are:
1. God is imaginary (what I believe).
2. Free will is imaginary.
3. God is not all-knowing.

You left out omnipotence. To negate our free will, God must not only have knowledge of our actions, but power over them. Otherwise He's just an observer of our choices.

Other than that, I agree with you.

 

[agent_smith]

You left out omnipotence. To negate our free will, God must not only have knowledge of our actions, but power over them. Otherwise He's just an observer of our choices.

Could you elaborate a little? I don't see how God would need to be omnipotent to control us. (Or why he would need to step in and change anything at all, since a perfect God would have set everything in motion from day 1)

 

[Storm]

Could you elaborate a little? I don't see how God would need to be omnipotent to control us. (Or why he would need to step in and change anything at all, since a perfect God would have set everything in motion from day 1)

Well, if He's not omnipotent, why assume He can control us at all? Our design "flaws" would be out of His control, and our choices are our own, He's just an observer.

If He's omnipotent AND omniscient, however, He not only knows our choices, but has the power to control them. Whether or not He chooses to do so is superfluous.

 

[Troublemane]

Could you elaborate a little? I don't see how God would need to be omnipotent to control us. (Or why he would need to step in and change anything at all, since a perfect God would have set everything in motion from day 1)

the difficulty here comes from the assumption that God is separate and distinct from the cosmos. If God is in fact existence itself then there is absolutely no conflict of terms here: God would then be omnipotent (because all things in the comos are not only natural law but part of God), And omniscient (because if God is all of existence then everything that exists is part of God), etc. ..the only thing we must assume for this to be true is that the comos itself is intelligent.

perhaps the past religions of the world were primitive attempts to contact this intelligence. i personally dont think the bible (which is a collection of ancient tribal customs and beliefs, and some nice morality tales) should be the end all be-all of religious thought. It should be a clue as to how we develloped as a people religiously, but its only a part of the puzzle.

I believe the universe is inherently intelligent, iterative and interactive. we are creating new stories all the time, increasing the complexity of the cosmos with each passing moment. to decide that everything worthwhile about God was written in a book 2000 years ago is folly. new things are a'happening all the time.
:angel2:

 

[Storm]

I agree with you Troublemane, but the argument addresses a different God-concept.

 

[agent_smith]

the difficulty here comes from the assumption that God is separate and distinct from the cosmos. If God is in fact existence itself then there is absolutely no conflict of terms here: God would then be omnipotent (because all things in the comos are not only natural law but part of God), And omniscient (because if God is all of existence then everything that exists is part of God), etc. ..the only thing we must assume for this to be true is that the comos itself is intelligent.

perhaps the past religions of the world were primitive attempts to contact this intelligence. i personally dont think the bible (which is a collection of ancient tribal customs and beliefs, and some nice morality tales) should be the end all be-all of religious thought. It should be a clue as to how we develloped as a people religiously, but its only a part of the puzzle.

I believe the universe is inherently intelligent, iterative and interactive. we are creating new stories all the time, increasing the complexity of the cosmos with each passing moment. to decide that everything worthwhile about God was written in a book 2000 years ago is folly. new things are a'happening all the time.
:angel2:

This entire argument is based on the assumption that God exists. What IF he doesn't? Wouldn't that explain just as much about why books like the bible make no sense in places?

 

[camanintx]

And how does God knowing what's going to happen eliminate free will? If God is outside of time, it would be like him watching a videotape of a football game, knowing the outcome before it actually happens. Does that mean that the game was 'fixed' simply because someone was 'informed' (outside of time) about the outcome?

I asked the following hypothetical question on another thread but no one answered it.

If I have a choice between chicken and beef for lunch tomorrow, and God with it's infinite knowledge tells me today that I am going to have beef, do I have the option of choosing chicken? If I do, then what happens to God's knowledge that I would choose beef?
​

Doesn't the idea that something can exist outside of time and know the future before it happens conflict with the concept of free will?

 

[Storm]

I asked the following hypothetical question on another thread but no one answered it.

If I have a choice between chicken and beef for lunch tomorrow, and God with it's infinite knowledge tells me today that I am going to have beef, do I have the option of choosing chicken? If I do, then what happens to God's knowledge that I would choose beef?
​

Doesn't the idea that something can exist outside of time and know the future before it happens conflict with the concept of free will?

To my mind, only if you throw omnipotence into the Godly mix. If God knows our choices but cannot contol them, we still have free will.

 

[logician]

I asked the following hypothetical question on another thread but no one answered it.

If I have a choice between chicken and beef for lunch tomorrow, and God with it's infinite knowledge tells me today that I am going to have beef, do I have the option of choosing chicken? If I do, then what happens to God's knowledge that I would choose beef?​

Doesn't the idea that something can exist outside of time and know the future before it happens conflict with the concept of free will?

I think that the concepts of omniscience and omnipotence are fantasy rather than reality, because of the many logical problems involved (if you believe in a creator god in the first place). For that reason alone, I cannot accept the existence of a "supreme" being, there are many others reasons also.

 

[camanintx]

To my mind, only if you throw omnipotence into the Godly mix. If God knows our choices but cannot contol them, we still have free will.

But what happens to God's omniscience if I change my mind? Does God suddenly remember me choosing chicken?

If knowledge of a choice is an effect of making the choice, then how can it precede the action that caused it?

 

[Storm]

But what happens to God's omniscience if I change my mind? Does God suddenly remember me choosing chicken?

My understanding of it is that He would simply know that you would change your mind.

If knowledge of a choice is an effect of making the choice, then how can it precede the action that caused it?

I don't understand your premise. Restate, please?

 

[Sola'lor]

I don't feel like typing an essay, so here goes...

If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what we are going to do.

I agree.

If this is true, then why does God get angry, or pleased, after people do things? Surely he already knows what was going to happen?

I don't believe he really get angry but I think He can be very upset. but that's kind of irrelevant to te discussion. Because certain actions are pleasing to God and other actions aren't. Just because He knows it will happen doesn't mean He has to be emotionless.

Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have prevented it from happening (since a punishment is given to the sinner, God clearly didn't want it to happen).

Because the people still did the action. It doesn't matter that God knows we will do something. What matters is are actual performance of the action.

We would God stop people from doing bad things when the entire point of this life is for us to choose between good and evil. How could we choose evil if God would always prevent if from happening. It doesn't sound much like a test to me if there aren't any wrong answers.

A good example of this is Adam and Eve - God knew what was going to happen, but got angry and punished them for it??

As a mentioned earlier I don't think God was angry with them. But He did know it would happen. But God's knowledge of what would happen didn't cause it to happen. Adam and Eve still partook of the fruit. And because of their action God punished them.

"No, we have free will!" I hear you say.
That makes no difference. If God created us, he created our minds and our ability to choose and reason. Just like if we build a robot,the robot may be "choosing" what to do, but it will only do what the programmer designed it to do in different situations.

So you're saying God built each of us to perform every we will do action before we do it?

Still don't believe me? How about this: If I ran outside right now and got hit by a bus, it MUST have been part of "God's plan" for me to die at that moment. Therefore, he must know what I am going to "choose" to do.

It doesn't follow. God's knowledge doesn't cause things to happen. We still have to do the action. You still have to send the command from your brian to you legs to run and the muscles in your legs still have to move. God's knowledge of what you will do doesn't cause you to take those actions.

There is only one possibility I can think of: that God must somehow retard his own knowledge of what choices we are going to make. But that would contradict him being an omnipotent God.

There's only one possibility I can think of. God's knowledge has no bearing on our actions. God simply knows what we will do. God knows what actions we will perform. God knows what commands our brains will send to our muscles. But it doesn't make any sense that that knowledge determines what we will do.

Anyway, back to my main point... can anyone solve this problem? The only solutions I see are:
1. God is imaginary (what I believe).
2. Free will is imaginary.
3. God is not all-knowing.

I think I just solved the problem, for me at least.

The only solution I see is:
1. God knows everything about the past, present, and future. But even though God knows it we still have to do the actions, we still have to make the choices.

 

[Sola'lor]

I asked the following hypothetical question on another thread but no one answered it.

If I have a choice between chicken and beef for lunch tomorrow, and God with it's infinite knowledge tells me today that I am going to have beef, do I have the option of choosing chicken? If I do, then what happens to God's knowledge that I would choose beef?​

Doesn't the idea that something can exist outside of time and know the future before it happens conflict with the concept of free will?

That's probably why God doesn't tell you what you will do tomorrow. But using your question:

If God told you would eat beef and you ate beef then he knew you would actually eat beef. If He told you you would eat beef and you didn't then He would have known He would tell you you would eat beef and He would also have known that even though He would tell you that you would still have chosen chicken. There's not conflict. The only problem is that WE don't know what we will do.