Free will and omniscience?

[Fish-Hunter]

"Keep in mind that Christians do very little evil in the world today. "

Bush claims to be a Christian, and has done more damage to world peace than any other person alive today.

God cannot do everything and has limitations. It is impossible for God to lie or do an evil act. Within those who profess to be a Christian, not all who profess have been converted. Even for those Christians that have been born again, the converted struggle with sin too (Rom 7). The converted are sinners in process at war with their old sinful nature. God is perfect, Christians are not.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. - John 1:5

1. When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; - James 1:13

 

[Magic Man]

What Fish-Hunter said is my belief on this question. You jumped the gun a little on me. I was not trying to state a position in my last post to you. I was trying to help you clarify how you would argue a point if it was from a Christian point of view. I was trying to help you out. You are so accustomed to arguing with me that you did not recognize that.

Anyway, you are wrong to use every evil thing that happens in the world as an argument against God or Christians. Here is why:
1. As Fish-Hunter pointed out, it might be God administering justice. Even atheist who do not believe in God believe in justice. We are talking about past historical events and not natural disasters.
2. It may be the Devil's doing and not God at all.
3. Most of the evil done in the modern day is done by atheist or unbelievers of other religions (non-Christians). The Communist is the main evil doers today, and they are not all in China either, but that is close to one third of the world's population there. How come you don't use that argument against China? Keep in mind that Christians do very little evil in the world today. You need to find a different group to pick on. Most of the things you cite as evil occurred eons ago in history and have nothing to do with us today. Most of the evils of the past were not done by true Christians. If they did evil, they were pretenders and not real Christians.
4. If atheist had to justify their behavior before they spoke out, they would not be able to participate in any debate anywhere in the world for the next 1000 years. Of course that is only my opinion, but flies are known to be correct a large number of times.
5. God disapproves of evil so much that He offers a great remedy - Jesus Christ. What do you have to offer to solve the problem of evil?
GadFly

This is my point. When God does something, it's good, when the Devil does something it's evil. The OT tells us that God sent the flood, among other things. If you don't believe that, then this argument is not for you. If you do, then this is. Even if they both perform the same act, God doing it would be considered good, whie the Devil doing it would be considered evil. Killing millions of people is evil, no matter how you look at it. You can rationalize and say that God's act was good for this, this and this reason, but in the end, all it is is a rationalization to make the God of the OT fit an image.

Please, stop with the Communist crap, too. Do some research, and then come back.

I never said Christians were evil. Some do bad things, just as some in every group do bad things. And, no, you weren't helping me, you were putting words in my mouth. I made my argument, I don't need you to make it for me.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter
Agreed...restoration theology is based on complete apostasy and the failure of almighty God for 1,800 years with LDS theology. Reformed theology is based on old creation becoming new creation... and all the struggles that go along with it. Reformed theology is based on a remnant chosen by grace from all generations throughout redemptive history.

God was not defeated from the 1st century to the restoration and revelation of Joseph Smith. I'm curious, why do you think God was defeated for 1,800 years? Was God too weak and anemic from preventing the wholesale apostasy of the church that Christ purchased?

Amos 8:
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

The apostacy was complete - it covered the entire Earth from sea to sea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In any event - as far as free will - we are not here proving anything to God, we are proving to ourself who we are. We learn through experience, we are judged by what we actually do, not what we probably would have done... Just because God knows how it will turn out does not mean that He forces it to turn out that way. We control who we are... Faith without works is dead - takes both faith and works, works being what we do with our free will.

I think you presented a circular argument by quoting from the Mormon Bible to support an apparent apostasy of the bride of Christ for whom Christ purchased (Christian church). Do you think you can make a case for an entire apostasy of the the bride of Christ for whom Christ died for from the Christian Bible (66 books)? If you cannot support a wholesale apostasy of the entire Christian church from the 1st century through the 19th century from the Christian Bible, maybe the Mormon Bible is just a fictional book. That's something for LDS Christians to think about. Maybe your hope is based on a 14 year boy as compared to Jesus Christ alone? :rainbow1: Look at the promise of the Savior about His bride whom He purchased with His own blood. Who are you going to believe, Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith?

Matthew 16:18:
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

This is my point. When God does something, it's good, when the Devil does something it's evil. The OT tells us that God sent the flood, among other things. If you don't believe that, then this argument is not for you. If you do, then this is. Even if they both perform the same act, God doing it would be considered good, whie the Devil doing it would be considered evil. Killing millions of people is evil, no matter how you look at it. You can rationalize and say that God's act was good for this, this and this reason, but in the end, all it is is a rationalization to make the God of the OT fit an image.

Please, stop with the Communist crap, too. Do some research, and then come back.

I never said Christians were evil. Some do bad things, just as some in every group do bad things. And, no, you weren't helping me, you were putting words in my mouth. I made my argument, I don't need you to make it for me.

How do you determine what is good or evil? How do you determine what is moral or immoral? Do you personally agree with the 10 commandments? Why or why not?

 

[Sola'lor]

I think you presented a circular argument by quoting from the Mormon Bible to support an apparent apostasy of the bride of Christ for whom Christ purchased (Christian church). Do you think you can make a case for an entire apostasy of the the bride of Christ for whom Christ died for from the Christian Bible (66 books)? If you cannot support a wholesale apostasy of the entire Christian church from the 1st century through the 19th century from the Christian Bible, maybe the Mormon Bible is just a fictional book. That's something for LDS Christians to think about. Maybe your hope is based on a 14 year boy as compared to Jesus Christ alone? :rainbow1:

The Mormons don't have their own Bible. We use the King James Version. That quote was from the KJV.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

The Mormons don't have their own Bible. We use the King James Version. That quote was from the KJV.

Thanks for correcting my error and I welcome it! I'm not sure if that one verse is even close to imply that there would be a wholesale apostasy of the Christian church. What happened to Joseph Smith's translation of the Christian Bible...not good enough for the LDS Church to use? Do you mind presenting a case for the entire apostasy of the 1st century through the 19th century church through the Christian Bible. I would love to read in context whatever Bible verses you can come up with. Does the Christian Bible ever point to the restoration movement of the LDS Church and a prophet of Joseph Smith? The other sheep is the Gentiles. If you wish to discuss, maybe you could start another thread and I would love to particpate. But before you start, can the Mormon Faith be supported apart from the Book of Mormon? Can the apostasy be strongly supported by the Holy Bible with scriptures taken in proper context? The proper context is the entire Bible, or at least the entire book of Amos.

Originally Posted by idea
Amos 8:
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

The apostacy was complete - it covered the entire Earth from sea to sea.

Amos 8

A Basket of Ripe Fruit

1 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: a basket of ripe fruit. 2 "What do you see, Amos?" he asked.
"A basket of ripe fruit," I answered.
Then the LORD said to me, "The time is ripe for my people Israel; I will spare them no longer.
3 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "the songs in the temple will turn to wailing. Many, many bodies—flung everywhere! Silence!"
4 Hear this, you who trample the needy
and do away with the poor of the land,
5 saying,
"When will the New Moon be over
that we may sell grain,
and the Sabbath be ended
that we may market wheat?"—
skimping the measure,
boosting the price
and cheating with dishonest scales,
6 buying the poor with silver
and the needy for a pair of sandals,
selling even the sweepings with the wheat.
7 The LORD has sworn by the Pride of Jacob: "I will never forget anything they have done.
8 "Will not the land tremble for this,
and all who live in it mourn?
The whole land will rise like the Nile;
it will be stirred up and then sink
like the river of Egypt.
9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD,
"I will make the sun go down at noon
and darken the earth in broad daylight.
10 I will turn your religious feasts into mourning
and all your singing into weeping.
I will make all of you wear sackcloth
and shave your heads.
I will make that time like mourning for an only son
and the end of it like a bitter day.
11 "The days are coming," declares the Sovereign LORD,
"when I will send a famine through the land—
not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
12 Men will stagger from sea to sea
and wander from north to east,
searching for the word of the LORD,
but they will not find it.
13 "In that day
"the lovely young women and strong young men
will faint because of thirst. 14 They who swear by the shame of Samaria,
or say, 'As surely as your god lives, O Dan,'
or, 'As surely as the god of Beersheba lives'—
they will fall,
never to rise again."

 

[crystalonyx]

God is perfect,

I know of no absolute law that requires a perfect god. In fact the term is meaningless, a supposed god is not bound by our sense of perfection.

 

[Magic Man]

How do you determine what is good or evil? How do you determine what is moral or immoral? Do you personally agree with the 10 commandments? Why or why not?

For the most part I agree with the 10 commandments. That's why I think killing, especially killing millions of people, is bad.

 

[Sola'lor]

I''l start the new thread in a few minutes. It's a little busy at work today.

Thanks for correcting my error and I welcome it! I'm not sure if that one verse is even close to imply that there would be a wholesale apostasy of the Christian church. What happened to Joseph Smith's translation of the Christian Bible...not good enough for the LDS Church to use?

We useonly a few selections from Joseph Smith's translation. But His translation was never finished. That and the copyright to that translation belongs to the Community of Christ. I doubt very many LDS have read the Joseph Smith translation. I haven't even read the whole thing.

Do you mind presenting a case for the entire apostasy of the 1st century through the 19th century church through the Christian Bible. I would love to read in context whatever Bible verses you can come up with. Does the Christian Bible ever point to the restoration movement of the LDS Church and a prophet of Joseph Smith?

Sure I'll start a new thread about it. Just give me a few minutes.

There are many Biblical scriptures that can seen to supporty those views.

The other sheep is the Gentiles. If you wish to discuss, maybe you could start another thread and I would love to particpate. But before you start, can the Mormon Faith be supported apart from the Book of Mormon? Can the apostasy be strongly supported by the Holy Bible with scriptures taken in proper context?

There are Biblical scriptures that support the LDS church. But they aren't obvious or else the church would have been started long ago without the Book of Mormon.

 

[idea]

I think you presented a circular argument by quoting from the Mormon Bible to support an apparent apostasy of the bride of Christ for whom Christ purchased (Christian church). Do you think you can make a case for an entire apostasy of the the bride of Christ for whom Christ died for from the Christian Bible (66 books)? If you cannot support a wholesale apostasy of the entire Christian church from the 1st century through the 19th century from the Christian Bible, maybe the Mormon Bible is just a fictional book. That's something for LDS Christians to think about. Maybe your hope is based on a 14 year boy as compared to Jesus Christ alone? :rainbow1: Look at the promise of the Savior about His bride whom He purchased with His own blood. Who are you going to believe, Jesus Christ or Joseph Smith?

Matthew 16:18:
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt 16:
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of chell shall not dprevail against it.

flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee - the church is founded upon revelations and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

I rely on the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 11: 3 … no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

In any event...

Apostasy of the Early Christian Church
Isa. 24:5 changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant
Isa. 29:13 this people draw near me with their mouth
Isa. 60:2 darkness shall cover the earth
Amos 8:11 a famine ... of hearing the words of the Lord
Matt. 13:25 his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat
Matt. 24:5 saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many
Matt. 24:24 shall arise false Christs, and false prophets
John 6:66 his disciples went back, and walked no more with him
Acts 20:29 shall grievous wolves enter in among you
1 Cor. 11:18 there be divisions among you
Gal. 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him
Gal. 3:1 who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey
2 Thes. 2:3 shall not come, except there come a falling away first
1 Tim. 1:6 some having swerved have turned aside
1 Tim. 4:1 giving heed to seducing spirits
2 Tim. 1:15 all they which are in Asia be turned away from me
2 Tim. 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred
2 Tim. 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power
2 Tim. 4:4 turn away their ears from the truth ... unto fables
Titus 1:16 profess that they know God, but in works they deny him
James 4:1 From whence came wars and fightings among you
2 Pet. 2:1 false prophets also among the people
2 Pet. 3:17 being led away with the error of the wicked
1 Jn. 2:18 now are there many antichrists
1 Jn. 4:1 many false prophets are gone out into the world
Jude 1:4 certain men crept in ... denying the only Lord God
Rev. 2:2 which say they are apostles, and are not
Rev. 3:16 thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot
Rev. 13:7 to make war with the saints
1 Ne. 13:26 foundation of a great and abominable church
2 Ne. 26:20 the Gentiles ... have stumbled
2 Ne. 27:1 Gentiles ... will be drunken with iniquity
Morm. 8:33 transfigured the holy word of God
D&C 1:15 strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant
D&C 86:3 Satan ... soweth the tares
D&C 112:23 darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people
JS-H 1:19 they were all wrong, ... their hearts are far from me
See also Matt. 24:11; Rom. 11:21; 1 Cor. 1:11; 3:3; Col. 2:22; 1 Tim. 1:19; Titus 1:10; 2 Pet. 2:22; 3 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 2:5; 1 Ne. 11:34.
you can ignore those last couple of refs if you like

Back on topic - free will -
2 Nephi 2:27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

or if you prefer:
NT Gal 5:1 STAND fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Matt 16:
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of chell shall not dprevail against it.

flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee - the church is founded upon revelations and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

I rely on the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 11: 3 … no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

In any event...

Apostasy of the Early Christian Church
Isa. 24:5 changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant
Isa. 29:13 this people draw near me with their mouth
Isa. 60:2 darkness shall cover the earth
Amos 8:11 a famine ... of hearing the words of the Lord
Matt. 13:25 his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat
Matt. 24:5 saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many
Matt. 24:24 shall arise false Christs, and false prophets
John 6:66 his disciples went back, and walked no more with him
Acts 20:29 shall grievous wolves enter in among you
1 Cor. 11:18 there be divisions among you
Gal. 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him
Gal. 3:1 who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey
2 Thes. 2:3 shall not come, except there come a falling away first
1 Tim. 1:6 some having swerved have turned aside
1 Tim. 4:1 giving heed to seducing spirits
2 Tim. 1:15 all they which are in Asia be turned away from me
2 Tim. 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred
2 Tim. 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power
2 Tim. 4:4 turn away their ears from the truth ... unto fables
Titus 1:16 profess that they know God, but in works they deny him
James 4:1 From whence came wars and fightings among you
2 Pet. 2:1 false prophets also among the people
2 Pet. 3:17 being led away with the error of the wicked
1 Jn. 2:18 now are there many antichrists
1 Jn. 4:1 many false prophets are gone out into the world
Jude 1:4 certain men crept in ... denying the only Lord God
Rev. 2:2 which say they are apostles, and are not
Rev. 3:16 thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot
Rev. 13:7 to make war with the saints
1 Ne. 13:26 foundation of a great and abominable church
2 Ne. 26:20 the Gentiles ... have stumbled
2 Ne. 27:1 Gentiles ... will be drunken with iniquity
Morm. 8:33 transfigured the holy word of God
D&C 1:15 strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant
D&C 86:3 Satan ... soweth the tares
D&C 112:23 darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people
JS-H 1:19 they were all wrong, ... their hearts are far from me
See also Matt. 24:11; Rom. 11:21; 1 Cor. 1:11; 3:3; Col. 2:22; 1 Tim. 1:19; Titus 1:10; 2 Pet. 2:22; 3 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 2:5; 1 Ne. 11:34.
you can ignore those last couple of refs if you like

Back on topic - free will -
2 Nephi 2:27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

or if you prefer:
NT Gal 5:1 STAND fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

I rely on the Holy Spirit as He reveals the truth through the Holy Bible alone. The spirit that you follow speaks through various revelations contrary to the Bible such as your quotes from the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. The LDS Faith has an extremely low view of the scriptures (Holy Bible) because you believe the Bible has been compromised by the apparent apostasy. I believe in the sufficiency of Scriptures (Holy Bible). Your faith is built upon the insufficiency of Scriptures, banking on the corruption of the Holy Bible. I suggest that you join the new thread created by Sola'lor in debating the LDS Faith through the light of the Bible alone. The scriptures from the Holy Bible highlighted in blue are to be reflected upon and could be speaking about the LDS Church as compared to the historical Christian church. As we both know, the quotes highlighted in red are not considered revelation from God from those outside the LDS Faith. In addition, your quote of Matthew 16 is also used by the Roman Catholic church to support apostolic succession and the papacy. The true church of God is not a religious institution like the Roman Catholic Church organization, or the Mormon Church organization. The true church of God is made up of all individuals (redeemed sinners) throughout redemptive history that God united to Christ through faith.

 

[uss_bigd]

The true church of God is not a religious institution like the Roman Catholic Church organization, or the Mormon Church organization. The true church of God is made up of all individuals (redeemed sinners) throughout redemptive history that God united to Christ through faith.

Oh yeah? you claim to rely on the bible? let us see how true tha is? explain this:

1. Acts 20:28
   Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
2. 1 Corinthians 1:2
   Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
3. 1 Corinthians 10:32
   Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
4. 1 Corinthians 11:22
   What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
5. 1 Corinthians 15:9
   For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
6. 2 Corinthians 1:1
   Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
7. Galatians 1:13
   For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
8. 1 Timothy 3:5
   (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

The word "Minister" according to the mirriam webster dictionary is defined as " the superior of one of several religious orders. did the church in the bible say if it had a minister. Let us read:

Acts 26:13-19


At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king
Paul was made minister of the church, written in 8 different verses posted above. further more, Paul told Timothy

2 Tim 4:5

But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry

Paul was passing the torch . do you want to know what other instruction Timothy received from Paul?

2 Tim 4:2-4

Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths



How did i know he was passing the torch?

2 Tim 4:6-8
For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

furhermore, Paul had this instruction to the early Chruch at Corinth

1. 1 Corinthians 4:6
   And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
2. 1 Corinthians 4:9
   For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

 

[gnostic]

I preferred what Jesus had to say than to what Paul had to say.

Even though I don't believe in miracles or the resurrection, I admired Jesus more than I do Paul.

So you can quote as much from Paul's letters as you like, but the bottom-line is that Paul was only writing "what he think he knows" about Jesus' teaching, even though he had never met Jesus.

Then you may probably quote from Acts about Paul's change of heart and conversion, seeing the light on th road that blinded him, and that Paul met the spiritual Jesus. Well, then I have to say that I believe in Paul's visitation as little as I believe in Jesus' miracles and resurrection.

I still don't like Paul and his teachings. It is his teachings, or one of the factors, that put me off about Christianity.

 

[uss_bigd]

I preferred what Jesus had to say than to what Paul had to say.

Even though I don't believe in miracles or the resurrection, I admired Jesus more than I do Paul.

So you can quote as much from Paul's letters as you like, but the bottom-line is that Paul was only writing "what he think he knows" about Jesus' teaching, even though he had never met Jesus.

Then you may probably quote from Acts about Paul's change of heart and conversion, seeing the light on th road that blinded him, and that Paul met the spiritual Jesus. Well, then I have to say that I believe in Paul's visitation as little as I believe in Jesus' miracles and resurrection.

I still don't like Paul and his teachings. It is his teachings, or one of the factors, that put me off about Christianity.

So you don't believe in the teachings of Paul. are you saying he taught differently from Christ? how so?

 

[gnostic]

For one, the word "church" is only mention twice in the gospels, or to be more precise, only in 2 verses in Matthew's. No church was ever built in Jesus' time.

All the gospels were written after Paul's letters and yet none of the other gospels wrote anything about church.

So what is this "church" that Jesus speak of?

 

[uss_bigd]

For one, the word "church" is only mention twice in the gospels, or to be more precise, only in 2 verses in Matthew's. No church was ever built in Jesus' time.

So what is a church?

oh ok? shall i just take your word for it?:flirt:

what is the church? bibilically speaking it is the body of Christ. try searching the body of christ in the gospel. let me know what you find.

 

[gnostic]

I don't have time to do the searching. Why don't you provide the relevant quotes, then I will deal with them as I see them.

 

[uss_bigd]

See this thread


http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-omnipresent-omniscient-concept-biblical.html

 

[agent_smith]

See this thread


http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-omnipresent-omniscient-concept-biblical.html

All you've proven is that the bible claims we have free will and stuff.

That does not escape the fact that it's completely impossible, based on your definition of God.

 

[uss_bigd]

All you've proven is that the bible claims we have free will and stuff.

That does not escape the fact that it's completely impossible, based on your definition of God.

what is and stuff?

What is complete impossible? omniscience and omnipresence? \

I was proving that such concepts are not biblical