Free will and omniscience?

[Popeyesays]

If that is the response you are going to offer then giving any type of in-depth response to your posts is absolutely pointless.

I tend to agree. I think it is useless to try to appreciate a "Johnny One-Note" in open consultation.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lew0049]

The same can be said of your post, which equates belief in a god with scientific inquiry,

I'm sorry but scientific inquiry is supposed to provide procedures/techniques for investigating a phenomena. Thus hypotheses are formed as an explanation to a phenomena and researchers design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. Guess what though? It is impossible to design any type of remotely plausible experimental study when knowledge of or access to the material is 100% unknown and unavailable.
You can argue this all you want, but these hypotheses are simply an attempt to make lesson the "need" for faith. But since you are a skeptic, I'm sure this has crossed your mind before.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I don't feel like typing an essay, so here goes...

If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what we are going to do.
If this is true, then why does God get angry, or pleased, after people do things? Surely he already knows what was going to happen?
Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have prevented it from happening (since a punishment is given to the sinner, God clearly didn't want it to happen).
A good example of this is Adam and Eve - God knew what was going to happen, but got angry and punished them for it??

"No, we have free will!" I hear you say.
That makes no difference. If God created us, he created our minds and our ability to choose and reason. Just like if we build a robot,the robot may be "choosing" what to do, but it will only do what the programmer designed it to do in different situations.
Still don't believe me? How about this: If I ran outside right now and got hit by a bus, it MUST have been part of "God's plan" for me to die at that moment. Therefore, he must know what I am going to "choose" to do.

There is only one possibility I can think of: that God must somehow retard his own knowledge of what choices we are going to make. But that would contradict him being an omnipotent God.

Anyway, back to my main point... can anyone solve this problem? The only solutions I see are:
1. God is imaginary (what I believe).
2. Free will is imaginary.
3. God is not all-knowing.

My choice is free will is imaginary. God does whatever He pleases according to the Holy Bible. Whatever God does is for His own glory. What God does is glorious, wonderful, wise, and right.

"But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases. - Job 23:13

Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him. -Psalm 115:3

The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths. - Psalm 135:6

 

[uss_bigd]

I don't feel like typing an essay, so here goes...

If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what we are going to do.
If this is true, then why does God get angry, or pleased, after people do things? Surely he already knows what was going to happen?
Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have prevented it from happening (since a punishment is given to the sinner, God clearly didn't want it to happen).
A good example of this is Adam and Eve - God knew what was going to happen, but got angry and punished them for it??

"No, we have free will!" I hear you say.
That makes no difference. If God created us, he created our minds and our ability to choose and reason. Just like if we build a robot,the robot may be "choosing" what to do, but it will only do what the programmer designed it to do in different situations.
Still don't believe me? How about this: If I ran outside right now and got hit by a bus, it MUST have been part of "God's plan" for me to die at that moment. Therefore, he must know what I am going to "choose" to do.

There is only one possibility I can think of: that God must somehow retard his own knowledge of what choices we are going to make. But that would contradict him being an omnipotent God.

Anyway, back to my main point... can anyone solve this problem? The only solutions I see are:
1. God is imaginary (what I believe).
2. Free will is imaginary.
3. God is not all-knowing.

People has free will, have you seen the Minority Report staring Tom Cruise? " you can choose."

hence, since there is free will, The God of the bible does know everything EXCEPT, what a person CHOOSES to do. That the reason why there is a gospel, it is purposed to guide people to choose what is right. but you and can always choose otherwise.

More specifically its like this, The God of the bible knows that people will sin, people will turn awat from God and do abonimable things, But he doesnot know yet if you chose in your heart to continue doing inequities, or if you wish to change your ways.

Once you make a choice, then he will know your outcome, and do something contingent.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

People has free will, have you seen the Minority Report staring Tom Cruise? " you can choose."

hence, since there is free will, The God of the bible does know everything EXCEPT, what a person CHOOSES to do. That the reason why there is a gospel, it is purposed to guide people to choose what is right. but you and can always choose otherwise.

More specifically its like this, The God of the bible knows that people will sin, people will turn awat from God and do abonimable things, But he doesnot know yet if you chose in your heart to continue doing inequities, or if you wish to change your ways.

Once you made a choice, then he will know your outcome, and do something contingent.

Romans 9

God's Sovereign Choice

1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;

and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."

Israel's Unbelief

30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

 

[idea]

I don't feel like typing an essay, so here goes...

If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what we are going to do.
If this is true, then why does God get angry, or pleased, after people do things? Surely he already knows what was going to happen?
Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have prevented it from happening (since a punishment is given to the sinner, God clearly didn't want it to happen).
A good example of this is Adam and Eve - God knew what was going to happen, but got angry and punished them for it??

"No, we have free will!" I hear you say.
That makes no difference. If God created us, he created our minds and our ability to choose and reason. Just like if we build a robot,the robot may be "choosing" what to do, but it will only do what the programmer designed it to do in different situations.
Still don't believe me? How about this: If I ran outside right now and got hit by a bus, it MUST have been part of "God's plan" for me to die at that moment. Therefore, he must know what I am going to "choose" to do.

There is only one possibility I can think of: that God must somehow retard his own knowledge of what choices we are going to make. But that would contradict him being an omnipotent God.

Anyway, back to my main point... can anyone solve this problem? The only solutions I see are:
1. God is imaginary (what I believe).
2. Free will is imaginary.
3. God is not all-knowing.

Did God create us? ... If He did, we would not have free will - we would only be puppets/machines... We have free will, part of us was not created by God... Read your scriptures again.
If you don't mind a long read, these are my beliefs...

… there is more than one way to interpret scriptures. Many think through textual criticism they can reclaim the original truths in scriptures – the scribes and Pharisees had the scriptures in their own language, original unaltered texts, and they were unable to understand them. We do not come to a knowledge of the truth through intellect, truth is revealed through the Holy Spirit…

1 Cor 11: 3 … no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

In any event, can you send a Bible verse that clearly states that in the beginning there was absolutely nothing? Something that states that God was surrounded by a void of nothingness?

Does the bible teach that God made everything? I do not think that it does.
John 1:
1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Does not say God and Jesus were alone, nor does it say they created everything -
“That was made” – IF it was made, He made it. However, some things are not made…

God did not create everything. God did not create Himself. God did not create evil. He is all powerful – what He is surrounded by He can control, but there is no need that He created it from nothing… He is forming, organizing, reforming… If He created it there would be no need for reform. No evil, no lost souls.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

The potter did not make the clay – he only forms what already exists…

Does it say God created man from nothing? It does not –
Gen 2:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Formed – is different than created from nothingness – formed, organized, changed what was already there… then “breathed” life into Adam, not created, breathed it in, placed it in….

There are actually 2 different accounts of the creation in Gen, Chapter 1 gives one account, chapter 2 gives another account in which the creative days are given a different order. Here is chapter 2, in which Adam is created (7) before the garden of Eden (vs 8). Atheists use this as one example where the Bible contradicts itself. I see it as describing two different creative periods, one in heaven “the generations of the heavens” and one on earth - seems pretty clear that chapter 2 is discussing formation/organization in heaven, before spirits were placed in the Earth… see vs 5. … first He forms Adam’s spirit, then He places the spirit in a formed body in Eden…

4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Our birth was not our beginning…
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

We existed before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Job 38: 4 Where wast thou…
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

We are sons and daughters of God –
Psa 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

we were there – we shouted for joy.

Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

“return” means coming to a state that we have previously been to – not “come” as if it were our first experience, but “return”

Zech 12:1 …the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

He “formed” our spirit before He placed us here on Earth. We call him our “Heavenly” Father because He is literally the father of our spirit… spirit not created from nothingness, formed out of intelligences that God found Himself surrounded by.

 

[logician]

I'm sorry but scientific inquiry is supposed to provide procedures/techniques for investigating a phenomena. Thus hypotheses are formed as an explanation to a phenomena and researchers design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. Guess what though? It is impossible to design any type of remotely plausible experimental study when knowledge of or access to the material is 100% unknown and unavailable.
You can argue this all you want, but these hypotheses are simply an attempt to make lesson the "need" for faith. But since you are a skeptic, I'm sure this has crossed your mind before.

I don't really see a point here.

 

[lew0049]

I don't really see a point here.

Relate it to what we discussed above.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Relate it to what we discussed above.

Why were you able to believe in Christ, because of your own free will or by the enabling power of God the Holy Spirit?

 

[idea]

Why were you able to believe in Christ, because of your own free will or by the enabling power of God the Holy Spirit?

First Believe through my own free will, second know through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

First Believe through my own free will, second know through the Holy Spirit.

Okay, do you praise yourself and boast in the flesh for exercising your free will to come to the truth according to your view of truth? I believe free will is a big idol of the heart for many religions, including the LDS Faith. Free will is the exaltation of mankind at the expense of God. Either mankind is sovereign, or God is sovereign. The idea of free will always leads to the sovereignty of mankind and his fallen desire to be autonomus from the rightful rule of God. It is a hangover from Genesis 3 and fall of mankind.

 

[idea]

Okay, do you praise yourself and boast in the flesh for exercising your free will to come to the truth according to your view of truth? I believe free will is a big idol of the heart for many religions, including the LDS Faith. Free will is the exaltation of mankind at the expense of God. Either mankind is sovereign, or God is sovereign. The idea of free will always leads to the sovereignty of mankind and his fallen desire to be autonomus from the rightful rule of God. It is a hangover from Genesis 3 and fall of mankind.

At the expense of God? No - to the glory of God. What God forms is no less magnificent than God. To belittle His work is to belittle Him. We have the potential to become as He is - or He is not all powerful.

Ps. 82:6 ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

At the expense of God? No - to the glory of God. What God forms is no less magnificent than God. To belittle His work is to belittle Him. We have the potential to become as He is - or He is not all powerful.

Ps. 82:6 ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

LDS theology and historical Biblical Christianity theology are not the same in view of God and man. It comes down to restoration theology, or historical biblical theology.

 

[GadFly]

I don't feel like typing an essay, so here goes...

If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what we are going to do.
If this is true, then why does God get angry, or pleased, after people do things? Surely he already knows what was going to happen?
Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have prevented it from happening (since a punishment is given to the sinner, God clearly didn't want it to happen).
A good example of this is Adam and Eve - God knew what was going to happen, but got angry and punished them for it??

"No, we have free will!" I hear you say.
That makes no difference. If God created us, he created our minds and our ability to choose and reason. Just like if we build a robot,the robot may be "choosing" what to do, but it will only do what the programmer designed it to do in different situations.
Still don't believe me? How about this: If I ran outside right now and got hit by a bus, it MUST have been part of "God's plan" for me to die at that moment. Therefore, he must know what I am going to "choose" to do.

There is only one possibility I can think of: that God must somehow retard his own knowledge of what choices we are going to make. But that would contradict him being an omnipotent God.

Anyway, back to my main point... can anyone solve this problem? The only solutions I see are:
1. God is imaginary (what I believe).
2. Free will is imaginary.
3. God is not all-knowing.

In my opinion a discussion that includes omnisciences of God will be rather pointless but I really enjoy and feel the need to discuss it. If there is a God and if He is omni everything, there is no way that man in his limited ability will ever be able to understand the omni of God, with one exception - Jesus Christ.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

In my opinion a discussion that includes omnisciences of God will be rather pointless but I really enjoy and feel the need to discuss it. If there is a God and if He is omni everything, there is no way that man in his limited ability will ever be able to understand the omni of God, with one exception - Jesus Christ.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh...the greatest revelation from God to man?

 

[GadFly]

You left out omnipotence. To negate our free will, God must not only have knowledge of our actions, but power over them. Otherwise He's just an observer of our choices.

Other than that, I agree with you.

Is that not what God is in the Christian tradition, kind of a record keeper waiting for the judgment day?

 

[GadFly]

This entire argument is based on the assumption that God exists. What IF he doesn't? Wouldn't that explain just as much about why books like the bible make no sense in places?

What in you thread is not based on assumption?

 

[idea]

LDS theology and historical Biblical Christianity theology are not the same in view of God and man. It comes down to restoration theology, or historical biblical theology.

A restoration of the original church, not a reformation of a fallen church.

Matt 17:11 Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

There is a big difference between restore and reform.

 

[GadFly]

To my mind, only if you throw omnipotence into the Godly mix. If God knows our choices but cannot contol them, we still have free will.

Here is a new thought. What if God is not interested in controlling us or in controlling what we think? Does he give up any omnipotence by allowing us to do as we please?

 

[GadFly]

But what happens to God's omniscience if I change my mind? Does God suddenly remember me choosing chicken?

If knowledge of a choice is an effect of making the choice, then how can it precede the action that caused it?

God does not care whether you eat chicken or beef. I know for a fact, God likes fish.