Free will and omniscience?

[Storm]

I see this question as irrelevant, as it is impossible for such a God to exist.

Why did you start the topic then? What's the fun of discussing it?

 

[agent_smith]

Why did you start the topic then? What's the fun of discussing it?

What's the point in saying "what if..." based on ignoring logic first?
Besides, I did answer the question

 

[agent_smith]

So creating the universe so His spirit children can gain physical bodies and thus be able to progress to become more like Him(their Father) doesn't make sense?

No. It doesn't. If God is omnipotent, he could create beings like himself instantly.

 

[Sola'lor]

No. It doesn't. If God is omnipotent, he could create beings like himself instantly.

Hmm. Interesting. However my belief we weren't created. We existed in some form or another for eternity. We often refer to this stage as intelligence. We were simply intelligences. God took us and formed us as His spirit children. Why only spirit children? Because if He just gave us physical bodies we would be unable to handle them. We had to learn and grow and develope as spirits first. After mastering our spiritual forms we were ready for the next stage. Thus the world was formed and we came here and gained our physical bodies. Now here on Earth we must learn to master our physical bodies. Only after that can we become like God.

It would be ridiculous just to give a spiritual being a perfect physical body will all the power and glory. They wouldn't be able to handle it. It would be like giving a chainsaw to a young child. Or nuclear technology to a nation that doesn't know how to handle it. The only logical way for existing intelligences to become like their Father God is to develope bit by bit, lesson, by lesson. Anything else would be illogical.

 

[Magic Man]

Hmm. Interesting. However my belief we weren't created. We existed in some form or another for eternity. We often refer to this stage as intelligence. We were simply intelligences. God took us and formed us as His spirit children. Why only spirit children? Because if He just gave us physical bodies we would be unable to handle them. We had to learn and grow and develope as spirits first. After mastering our spiritual forms we were ready for the next stage. Thus the world was formed and we came here and gained our physical bodies. Now here on Earth we must learn to master our physical bodies. Only after that can we become like God.

It would be ridiculous just to give a spiritual being a perfect physical body will all the power and glory. They wouldn't be able to handle it. It would be like giving a chainsaw to a young child. Or nuclear technology to a nation that doesn't know how to handle it. The only logical way for existing intelligences to become like their Father God is to develope bit by bit, lesson, by lesson. Anything else would be illogical.

Or, since He can do anything, He could just give us the ability to handle these bodies, or, even better, just give us the knowledge we get from this life without making us go through it. It doesn't make sense to us now, because that's not the way the world works, but He could do it, if He is omnipotent.

 

[Sola'lor]

Or, since He can do anything, He could just give us the ability to handle these bodies, or, even better, just give us the knowledge we get from this life without making us go through it. It doesn't make sense to us now, because that's not the way the world works, but He could do it, if He is omnipotent.

I agree and disagree. I agree that God has the ability to do those things. However I disagree because He won't do those things. If He did He would cease to be God. It would voilate our eternal progress. We need to learn and work for our own progress, not have it forced upon us by an unjust, unloving God.

 

[Magic Man]

I agree and disagree. I agree that God has the ability to do those things. However I disagree because He won't do those things. If He did He would cease to be God. It would voilate our eternal progress. We need to learn and work for our own progress, not have it forced upon us by an unjust, unloving God.

Why would that be unjust or unloving? I say it's the exact opposite. Why take the long way, when the short cut gets you to the same place with exactly the same result? If I "forced" you to take $100,000 dollars, would that be unjust?

 

[Sola'lor]

Why would that be unjust or unloving? I say it's the exact opposite. Why take the long way, when the short cut gets you to the same place with exactly the same result? If I "forced" you to take $100,000 dollars, would that be unjust?

We aren't talking about money. We're talking about knowledge and personalities. I would never want someone to violate my person and transfer some knowledge into my mind. It would be that same as if it was forcing me to do something. It would be a violation of and individuals development. It also wouldn't be the same place with the same result. It would be entirely different. The process of arriving at a destination is just as intergral as the destination itself. If Go just put knowledge in our minds thenwe would no longer be agents to act for ourselves. We would be object to be acted upon. We would be pawns. He could just put in and take away whatever memories or thoughts He wished. It doesn't sound much like freedom or free will to me.

 

[Magic Man]

We aren't talking about money. We're talking about knowledge and personalities. I would never want someone to violate my person and transfer some knowledge into my mind. It would be that same as if it was forcing me to do something. It would be a violation of and individuals development. It also wouldn't be the same place with the same result. It would be entirely different. The process of arriving at a destination is just as intergral as the destination itself. If Go just put knowledge in our minds thenwe would no longer be agents to act for ourselves. We would be object to be acted upon. We would be pawns. He could just put in and take away whatever memories or thoughts He wished. It doesn't sound much like freedom or free will to me.

So, you don't trust God? It seems that you trust Him enough to forget His killing of million of people because it must be part of His plan. Don't you then trust Him enough to know that giving you that information and making you that way is in your best interest?

 

[Storm]

So, you don't trust God? It seems that you trust Him enough to forget His killing of million of people because it must be part of His plan. Don't you then trust Him enough to know that giving you that information and making you that way is in your best interest?

Perhaps information is not enough. Wisdom is required, and that must be won the hard way.

 

[Magic Man]

Perhaps information is not enough. Wisdom is required, and that must be won the hard way.

I agree that that's how it works. I'm just saying that in this scenario, God can get around even that detail. He could give us everything, including the wisdom without the experience. Going with the Chritian view, things are only the way they are because that's the way God made them. If God made them differently, or changed them, which He could, then you wouldn't need experience to gain wisdom.

 

[Storm]

I agree that that's how it works. I'm just saying that in this scenario, God can get around even that detail. He could give us everything, including the wisdom without the experience. Going with the Chritian view, things are only the way they are because that's the way God made them. If God made them differently, or changed them, which He could, then you wouldn't need experience to gain wisdom.

He could, but should He?

God is our Father. OK. Does a good parent spoil his child?

 

[Magic Man]

He could, but should He?

God is our Father. OK. Does a good parent spoil his child?

See again, that's seeing things in our terms. I'm talking about seeing them in terms of existence not even being what it is now. If He's omnipotent, he could do it, and make it just, just like people think his use of the flood was just, when in fact, by our standards "given to us by Him", it's completely wrong. Right now, the Earth revolves around the sun, but He could reverse it. Right now, spoiling a child is counterproductive, but He could reverse it.

 

[Storm]

Again, "could" is uncontested. "Should" is another matter.

 

[Magic Man]

Again, "could" is uncontested. "Should" is another matter.

Maybe He shouldn't by our standards now. What I'm saying is "What if we had different standards because we lived in a different world"? He could make it so that it was the right thing to do.

 

[Storm]

We are so far off topic...

 

[camanintx]

Hmm. Interesting. However my belief we weren't created. We existed in some form or another for eternity. We often refer to this stage as intelligence. We were simply intelligences. God took us and formed us as His spirit children. Why only spirit children? Because if He just gave us physical bodies we would be unable to handle them. We had to learn and grow and develope as spirits first. After mastering our spiritual forms we were ready for the next stage. Thus the world was formed and we came here and gained our physical bodies. Now here on Earth we must learn to master our physical bodies. Only after that can we become like God.

Sorry to derail the thread but I have a simple question for Sola'lor. How many spirit children did you think your God made?

If every spirit child gets just one shot at a physical body, then you're looking at 96 Billion spirits and growing exponentially.

If you take into consideration reincarnation, then you still have at least 6 Billion spirits and counting.

 

[agent_smith]

It would be ridiculous just to give a spiritual being a perfect physical body will all the power and glory. They wouldn't be able to handle it. It would be like giving a chainsaw to a young child. Or nuclear technology to a nation that doesn't know how to handle it. The only logical way for existing intelligences to become like their Father God is to develope bit by bit, lesson, by lesson. Anything else would be illogical.

Illogical for a human. You're still comparing everything to humans. Why would God need to create imperfect beings? - He could (with his omnipotence) create things with as much knowledge as he wants.


Anyway, I also think this is getting a bit too off-topic now

 

[yossarian22]

What is Occam's razor?

A quote from William of Occam (Ockham?) explains it best
It is vain to do with more what can be done with fewer

Basically, the theory which makes the fewest assumptions is the best theory, provided predictive power remains unaffected.

 

[kadzbiz]

Agent Smith - I know I've come into this thread extremely late, but with respect to the OP, what makes you think that you know God so well anyway? If He even exists, there's nobody on this planet that knows 1% of what He would be all about. The whole argument is pointless.