Free will and omniscience?

[Fish-Hunter]

A restoration of the original church, not a reformation of a fallen church.

Matt 17:11 Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

There is a big difference between restore and reform.

Agreed...restoration theology is based on complete apostasy and the failure of almighty God for 1,800 years with LDS theology. Reformed theology is based on old creation becoming new creation... and all the struggles that go along with it. Reformed theology is based on a remnant chosen by grace from all generations throughout redemptive history.

God was not defeated from the 1st century to the restoration and revelation of Joseph Smith. I'm curious, why do you think God was defeated for 1,800 years? Was God too weak and anemic from preventing the wholesale apostasy of the church that Christ purchased?

 

[GadFly]

I think I do understand your position and yes, I do disagree with it. I think that the idea that God (or anything else for that matter) can have any foreknowledge of my choices is incompatible with my free will to make those choices. Either God cannot have foreknowledge or I cannot have free will. Just saying that God's foreknowledge is dependent on my choice does not resolve the paradox such a position entails.

The way you frame this debate, the problem of free will vs. omniscience can not be settled. However, God in his omniscience and omnipotence would not frame the debate as you have, not that it has not been a good debate, it has been. God's ways are so vastly beyond us that He knows it is useless to discuss omnipotence or omni anything with us. Remember Moses was told on the mountain who God was with these words, "I am that I AM." If God had told Moses more, Moses would have been blown to the ends of the universe by this knowledge. After all, Moses was asking the alleged first cause of the Big Bang who He was. Sometimes you are better off not to know.

 

[GadFly]

Only one word in this needs to be changed so it is compatible with freewill. It's not that we CANNOT deviate from the knwon outcome. It's that we WON't deviate from the outcome. Will still have all the choices. We just WON'T choose anything but what we WILL choose.

It just doesn't make any sense to me how free will can contradict omniscience.

In the beef-chicken example saying that God knows you will choose beef regardless of what you will actual choose it creating a paradox on purpose. It's saying that God's knowledge is parallel to our actions. It's saying God knows our choices apart from what we will actually choose. But it's not. It's the same. God would see time as a whole irrespective of future, past, and present. God know whats what you will actually choose. Not what you think you might choose.

Is this another option? God may not have planned an obvious outcome.

 

[GadFly]

Perhaps we shall have to invoke a little quantum mechanics here! According to the uncertainty principle anytime a subatomic particle is interacted with its state is irrevocably changed. In my understanding God can only know the state of all things if it/he/she is absolutely one with all things. Otherwise...the amount of energy required to instantly "know" the state of every particle in the universe is so great, it would destroy the universe.

So, its impossible for God to know the future with perfect foreknowledge because the universe is interactive and self-evolving, as well as from the quantum mechanics principle that any perfect knowledge of future events will change that future and prevent it from happening.

Would someone answer this, please? How do we know that the definition of omniscience is knowing everything as opposed to knowing being everywhere? How much of knowing relates to simple awareness and not intervention?

 

[GadFly]

None of my beliefs (e.g. evolution) are contradicted by science. I don't believe in anything that cannot be seen, or measured, or calculated, or observed, or analysed, in some way.

Does that make my view irrational? :no:

When you look at otehr religions, it is usually easy to pick holes in them. But the members of that religion see it as perfect.
When others look at your religion, it is easy for them to pick holes in it - but you see it as perfect too (otherwise you wouldn't believe it,right?)
I'm yet to see anyone disprove science - excluding the recent theories that haven't been investigated fully such as string theory - without offering a better alternative.

I refuse to believe in an invisible zombie, a life after death or an all-powerful God without a tiny bit of evidence.

You have the wrong symbol up. It should be :yes:. I know a lot of lovers that would reject your ideas of things not existing if it could not be physically quantified. If you believe what you just said, throw away about 2/3s of your language. You don't need it. If you will allow me to define any religion, especially your atheism, it is easy to poke holes in it. You are kind of hung up on science, are you not? You best read about Burt Russell's chicken. He believed in science as much as you but in the end, the chicken lost his head and ended up in the frying pan. I used to believe in the string theory but when I pulled the string, the top flew off the table anyway.

 

[GadFly]

According to many multiverse models today matter and energy have always existed, making the "first cause" problem irrelevant. A multitide or even infinite number of universes may be constantly dying and being reborn. One can hypothesize a creator god exists, but one is not needed.

All this may be true but the idea that all this creation and re-creation is going to go on without me is heart breaking. Therefore, I simply refuse to believe that I will not be here to witness all this. Who said a fly could not dream?
GadFly

 

[GadFly]

I certainly think that if some supernatural entity existed that could create a universe, or multiverse, it would essentially be beyond our comprehension, and would have none of the attributes of a lowly species like homo sapiens.

This statement is so true so why take this conversation too seriously? The discussion is fun but unless religion steps in to fill the gaps of our understanding about omniscience, we will learn nothing. It makes me think that we need a Christ to explain the gaps in our reasoning.

 

[Peace]

I don't feel like typing an essay, so here goes...

If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what we are going to do.
If this is true, then why does God get angry, or pleased, after people do things? Surely he already knows what was going to happen?
Why does God "punish" people for things he knew they were going to do - since he knew in advance what was going to happen, God could have prevented it from happening (since a punishment is given to the sinner, God clearly didn't want it to happen).
A good example of this is Adam and Eve - God knew what was going to happen, but got angry and punished them for it??

"No, we have free will!" I hear you say.
That makes no difference. If God created us, he created our minds and our ability to choose and reason. Just like if we build a robot,the robot may be "choosing" what to do, but it will only do what the programmer designed it to do in different situations.
Still don't believe me? How about this: If I ran outside right now and got hit by a bus, it MUST have been part of "God's plan" for me to die at that moment. Therefore, he must know what I am going to "choose" to do.

There is only one possibility I can think of: that God must somehow retard his own knowledge of what choices we are going to make. But that would contradict him being an omnipotent God.

Anyway, back to my main point... can anyone solve this problem? The only solutions I see are:
1. God is imaginary (what I believe).
2. Free will is imaginary.
3. God is not all-knowing.

God is omnicient and yes we do have free will.
God is all-knowing and He knows all things before it happens. But we should not forget another attribute of Allah which is Justice. God is Just, HE created within all of us good and evil and He gave us the freedom to choose (free will). It is we who choose what to follow either good or evil and not God who pushes us to choose. God is Just and the Just won't be the cause that some people follow their evil instinct and some follow the good. If we follow the evil it's our own responsibility, and we do it by our own choice and no one to blame but ourselves for its consequence.

 

[GadFly]

So, you don't trust God? It seems that you trust Him enough to forget His killing of million of people because it must be part of His plan. Don't you then trust Him enough to know that giving you that information and making you that way is in your best interest?

With this statement you introduce the concept of good vs. evil with God being evil for killing millions of people. I don't want to put words in your mouth but you would probably explain the theist position better here as representing the forces of good to God and employ the Devil as be responsible for the millions of people that died in whatever evil situation you had in mind. Anyway Christians do not blame God for evil. We blame that on the evil Devil. That also protects us from atheist who want to blame us for believing in a God that does bad things. Every bad thing that happens is not of God's doing; that was part of God's plan too. See, Smith, that also makes you part of the problem too. In God's plan we are all interconnected. That is true because I assumed it and said it was true and if you don't believe it, your not being logical. (That was a joke, but a fly has trouble with jokes.)

 

[Wandered Off]

God is omnicient and yes we do have free will.
God is all-knowing and He knows all things before it happens.

If your future is known, Peace, then you cannot do anything except what your known future is. You have no choice. This is the opposite of free will.

 

[GadFly]

Agent Smith - I know I've come into this thread extremely late, but with respect to the OP, what makes you think that you know God so well anyway? If He even exists, there's nobody on this planet that knows 1% of what He would be all about. The whole argument is pointless.

Why is it that late comers always seem to be able to grasp the truth about a situation right off the bat?

 

[GadFly]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh...the greatest revelation from God to man?

Yes. This is a fact in my life.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Yes. This is a fact in my life.

Thanks for sharing your convictions. I believe that the Bible is a closed book for some and an open book of revelation for others. Truth in Biblical revelation is intentionally concealed to many and intentionally revealed to some according to the Scriptures. It's a circular argument, but true nonetheless. Why did Jesus speak in parables according to scripture? Consider Romans chapter 9, 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2, Acts 13:48, Ephesians chapters 1 and 2, and Romans chapter 8 too.

 

[Magic Man]

With this statement you introduce the concept of good vs. evil with God being evil for killing millions of people. I don't want to put words in your mouth but you would probably explain the theist position better here as representing the forces of good to God and employ the Devil as be responsible for the millions of people that died in whatever evil situation you had in mind. Anyway Christians do not blame God for evil. We blame that on the evil Devil. That also protects us from atheist who want to blame us for believing in a God that does bad things. Every bad thing that happens is not of God's doing; that was part of God's plan too. See, Smith, that also makes you part of the problem too. In God's plan we are all interconnected. That is true because I assumed it and said it was true and if you don't believe it, your not being logical. (That was a joke, but a fly has trouble with jokes.)

Right. God is good, the Devil is evil. Anything that is good is God, and anything that is evil is the Devil. That is the stance of many Christians. With that in mind, how do you explain things like the Flood, and other atrocities perpetrated by God, not by the Devil? You say "Every bad thing that happens is not of God's doing...", then that seems to imply to me that some bad things that happen are God's doing, including things the Bible says he did. I just want to know how you reconcile it when God does something evil. As an atheist, I don't blame you for believing in a God who does bad things. I just don't understand how you can believe in a God who embodies the concept of "good", and yet commits evil acts, too.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Right. God is good, the Devil is evil. Anything that is good is God, and anything that is evil is the Devil. That is the stance of many Christians. With that in mind, how do you explain things like the Flood, and other atrocities perpetrated by God, not by the Devil? You say "Every bad thing that happens is not of God's doing...", then that seems to imply to me that some bad things that happen are God's doing, including things the Bible says he did. I just want to know how you reconcile it when God does something evil. As an atheist, I don't blame you for believing in a God who does bad things. I just don't understand how you can believe in a God who embodies the concept of "good", and yet commits evil acts, too.

The flood was an act of divine justice against evil. Do you believe in justice, or do you believe in lawlessness and Anarchy?

Anarchy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[idea]

Agreed...restoration theology is based on complete apostasy and the failure of almighty God for 1,800 years with LDS theology. Reformed theology is based on old creation becoming new creation... and all the struggles that go along with it. Reformed theology is based on a remnant chosen by grace from all generations throughout redemptive history.

God was not defeated from the 1st century to the restoration and revelation of Joseph Smith. I'm curious, why do you think God was defeated for 1,800 years? Was God too weak and anemic from preventing the wholesale apostasy of the church that Christ purchased?

Amos 8:
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

The apostacy was complete - it covered the entire Earth from sea to sea.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In any event - as far as free will - we are not here proving anything to God, we are proving to ourself who we are. We learn through experience, we are judged by what we actually do, not what we probably would have done... Just because God knows how it will turn out does not mean that He forces it to turn out that way. We control who we are... Faith without works is dead - takes both faith and works, works being what we do with our free will.

 

[lunamoth]

Amos 8:
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

The apostacy was complete - it covered the entire Earth from sea to sea.

That prophecy refers to the eight century BCE and thereabouts. But it is also an eternal truth, so there will be various periods and places where the the word of God can't be found.

 

[GadFly]

Right. God is good, the Devil is evil. Anything that is good is God, and anything that is evil is the Devil. That is the stance of many Christians. With that in mind, how do you explain things like the Flood, and other atrocities perpetrated by God, not by the Devil? You say "Every bad thing that happens is not of God's doing...", then that seems to imply to me that some bad things that happen are God's doing, including things the Bible says he did. I just want to know how you reconcile it when God does something evil. As an atheist, I don't blame you for believing in a God who does bad things. I just don't understand how you can believe in a God who embodies the concept of "good", and yet commits evil acts, too.

What Fish-Hunter said is my belief on this question. You jumped the gun a little on me. I was not trying to state a position in my last post to you. I was trying to help you clarify how you would argue a point if it was from a Christian point of view. I was trying to help you out. You are so accustomed to arguing with me that you did not recognize that.

Anyway, you are wrong to use every evil thing that happens in the world as an argument against God or Christians. Here is why:
1. As Fish-Hunter pointed out, it might be God administering justice. Even atheist who do not believe in God believe in justice. We are talking about past historical events and not natural disasters.
2. It may be the Devil's doing and not God at all.
3. Most of the evil done in the modern day is done by atheist or unbelievers of other religions (non-Christians). The Communist is the main evil doers today, and they are not all in China either, but that is close to one third of the world's population there. How come you don't use that argument against China? Keep in mind that Christians do very little evil in the world today. You need to find a different group to pick on. Most of the things you cite as evil occurred eons ago in history and have nothing to do with us today. Most of the evils of the past were not done by true Christians. If they did evil, they were pretenders and not real Christians.
4. If atheist had to justify their behavior before they spoke out, they would not be able to participate in any debate anywhere in the world for the next 1000 years. Of course that is only my opinion, but flies are known to be correct a large number of times.
5. God disapproves of evil so much that He offers a great remedy - Jesus Christ. What do you have to offer to solve the problem of evil?
GadFly

 

[crystalonyx]

"Keep in mind that Christians do very little evil in the world today. "

Bush claims to be a Christian, and has done more damage to world peace than any other person alive today.

 

[Peace]

If your future is known, Peace, then you cannot do anything except what your known future is. You have no choice. This is the opposite of free will.

I don't see it like that. I believe in all the attributes of God and since He is omnicient, the all-knowing then He must know what will happen and all our destiny since He is our Creator. Before creating man, Allah already knew what choices they would make in this life, what provision and opportunities He would give them; and in what state of belief or disbelief they would die. God could have created some people for hell and others for paradise and place them in their abode without giving them the chane to live on the earth. However, Allah allows human beings to live out their lives on earth and make all the choices they would have made, so that everyone who enters Hell will know that they chose hell by themselves. They will recognize God's mercy in their lives and acknowledge their sin in rejecting His signs and guidance. And they will accept His judgement as being just and beyond reproach.
Free will is given to us because God is Just, and it is by our own choice we follow either the path of Paradise or the path of hell.