Free Will and the Soul/Spirit.

[Sha'irullah]

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Discussion of Free will begins at 4:00.


I being the sort of materialist that I am do not believe in free will. This may come as a surprise to many people who believe in the soul and spirit but there is no actually no true reason to believe in the spirit considering that all traits about how we think and reason are physical in nature.

If this was not true then a perfectly healthy male soldier when coming home from a war with brain damage would not be affected the way he is if he had a supernatural soul/spirit.

Our actions are indeed determined and predetermined biologically. What free will we may have is very minimal at beast and considering later breakthroughs in neuroscience, free will of any kind may be further more debunked altogether.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

[youtube]iGqhFWUUMJU[/youtube]​

Discussion of Free will begins at 4:00.


I being the sort of materialist that I am do not believe in free will. This may come as a surprise to many people who believe in the soul and spirit but there is no actually no true reason to believe in the spirit considering that all traits about how we think and reason are physical in nature.

If this was not true then a perfectly healthy male soldier when coming home from a war with brain damage would not be affected the way he is if he had a supernatural soul/spirit.

Our actions are indeed determined and predetermined biologically. What free will we may have is very minimal at beast and considering later breakthroughs in neuroscience, free will of any kind may be further more debunked altogether.

If we don't have free will and all of our actions are determined based on chemical reactions in our brains, then how are we responsible for our actions??

 

[Sha'irullah]

If we don't have free will and all of our actions are determined based on chemical reactions in our brains, then how are we responsible for our actions??

We did the action so we are responsible. Simple as that.

 

[bobhikes]

.

Our actions are indeed determined and predetermined biologically. What free will we may have is very minimal at beast and considering later breakthroughs in neuroscience, free will of any kind may be further more debunked altogether.

I know you will find that if you actually study the works of neuroscience they know less about the specifics of the brain then you think.

Your deterministic outlook comes from comparing the Brain to our understanding of a computer. Our Brain is nothing like a computer and our understanding of it is very limited also each Brain itself operates in a unique fashion whereas your mapping will never be the same as mine. It is very doubtful science will ever fully understand the brain or mind.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I know you will find that if you actually study the works of neuroscience they know less about the specifics of the brain then you think.

Your deterministic outlook comes from comparing the Brain to our understanding of a computer. Our Brain is nothing like a computer and our understanding of it is very limited also each Brain itself operates in a unique fashion whereas your mapping will never be the same as mine. It is very doubtful science will ever fully understand the brain or mind.

Much like scientists lack of understanding about the ocean(we know more about the cosmos than what is in our waters) the brain is no different.

Also I never claimed anywhere that the brain is like a computer. But please explain how it is not like a computer

 

[bobhikes]

Much like scientists lack of understanding about the ocean(we know more about the cosmos than what is in our waters) the brain is no different.

Also I never claimed anywhere that the brain is like a computer. But please explain how it is not like a computer

You will have to wait for the Book. Not willing to share but the information is available if you want to take the time and gather it.

 

[Skwim]

If we don't have free will and all of our actions are determined based on chemical reactions in our brains, then how are we responsible for our actions??

We are only responsible in the sense that as an individual we, and no other entity, brought them into being---shared responsibilities not withstanding. It's a matter of assigning an operating agent to the effect: George, not Sam, did it.

 

[Sha'irullah]

You will have to wait for the Book. Not willing to share but the information is available if you want to take the time and gather it.

This is sort of a cop out and I am not trying to antagonize you.

I just do not see your reasoning and I am assuming your conclusions are based upon something substantial in knowing.

The brain can easily be compared to a computers in many regards as like computers and their start similitude with others they all differ in the exact minute of usage when their registry is altered. Every computers has accumulated differing binary sequences thanks to the registry and your placement of every personal file and individual usage of that computer.

This can easily be said for the brain and how we act as we all have experienced different things and have acquired different experiences.
Just like our social itneractions a computer's registry will eventually conflict with something as mine's is right now!

It is the main reason for strife. And the main reason I cannot play DVDs now :sad4:

 

[michel]

​

If this was not true then a perfectly healthy male soldier when coming home from a war with brain damage would not be affected the way he is if he had a supernatural soul/spirit.

I don't understand your reasoning - if we do have a "soul/spirit"(which I believe we do), that part of us is not "accessible" by our consciousness(unless , as some believe, we can access it to some extent through meditation)....

Our actions are indeed determined and predetermined biologically. What free will we may have is very minimal at beast and considering later breakthroughs in neuroscience, free will of any kind may be further more debunked altogether.

Would not that mean that punishments for crimes committed are a totally "unfair" way of dealing with the guilty - if they have no free will, and their crimes are pre-determined?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I don't understand your reasoning - if we do have a "soul/spirit"(which I believe we do), that part of us is not "accessible" by our consciousness(unless , as some believe, we can access it to some extent through meditation).... Would not that mean that punishments for crimes committed are a totally "unfair" way of dealing with the guilty - if they have no free will, and their crimes are pre-determined?

Well if we cannot connect with our Soul spirit, how can they be punished or rewarded in the afterlife?

At what point if we assume a soul, is our actions determine by that and at what point is it determined by our mind?

IF the soul is what compels us to do good and the mind to do evil, then it means that the soul can interact or connect with us.

 

[michel]

Well if we cannot connect with our Soul spirit, how can they be punished or rewarded in the afterlife?

At what point if we assume a soul, is our actions determine by that and at what point is it determined by our mind?

IF the soul is what compels us to do good and the mind to do evil, then it means that the soul can interact or connect with us.

I am not at all sure that we are talking about the same subject. Personally, I believe that our choices of behaviour (whether good or bad) come from the thoughts in our minds (brains), there is no separation of good and bad thoughts between the brain and the soul/spirit - why do you assume that all good comes from the soul, whilst all that is bad comes from the mind?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

We did the action so we are responsible. Simple as that.

Well in that case, we have free will. We can't be responsible for something we have no control of/over.

 

[michel]

Well in that case, we have free will. We can't be responsible for something we have no control of/over.

That seems Obvious to me....

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I am not at all sure that we are talking about the same subject. Personally, I believe that our choices of behaviour (whether good or bad) come from the thoughts in our minds (brains), there is no separation of good and bad thoughts between the brain and the soul/spirit - why do you assume that all good comes from the soul, whilst all that is bad comes from the mind?

Because then the question is what is the purpose of the soul? If all the things which were once attributed to the soul, such as personality, penchants for right and wrong, love, hate, envy, if all of those things can be tracked to the brain (which maybe a receiver or may be the cause), what is the point of the soul?

 

[Sha'irullah]

I don't understand your reasoning - if we do have a "soul/spirit"(which I believe we do), that part of us is not "accessible" by our consciousness(unless , as some believe, we can access it to some extent through meditation).... Would not that mean that punishments for crimes committed are a totally "unfair" way of dealing with the guilty - if they have no free will, and their crimes are pre-determined?

There is very little possible theory to consider that the soul intercedes in how we think. If this was the case then it is limited solely to natural existence. If it is limited to natural existence then this is Russel's Teapot all over again.

This is essentially giving an excuse for the soul/spirit's existence and make it conform to natural existence. If you make it conform to natural existence then why not just accept natural existence?

Name a thought or action that cannot be thought of or conceived without the existence of the soul or spirit.

Keep in mind that we even spiritual moments have been somewhat replicated through medical replication.

 

[Skwim]

Well in that case, we have free will. We can't be responsible for something we have no control of/over.

I think one needs to make the distinction between the two uses of "responsible" that's going on in the thread. In one sense of its use "responsible" simply means identifying the agency who preformed the act: X broke the vase, not Y. In the other sense it means the assignation of accountability; often coming down to praise or blame; X is responsible for breaking the vase because he could have avoided doing so had he been more careful.
In the first case responsibility can be assigned in both the deterministic and freewill worlds. In the second case it only works where there is freewill.

Because then the question is what is the purpose of the soul? If all the things which were once attributed to the soul, such as personality, penchants for right and wrong, love, hate, envy, if all of those things can be tracked to the brain (which maybe a receiver or may be the cause), what is the point of the soul?

Indeed, as well a notions of praise and blame; sin and salvation. In a world without freewill these notions are meaningless.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Well in that case, we have free will. We can't be responsible for something we have no control of/over.

We have the illusion and emotional perception of free will. It just makes us happy the same way that the factual existence of Zeus made many ancient Greeks happy.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I think one needs to make the distinction between the two uses of "responsible" that's going on in the thread. In one sense of its use "responsible" simply means identifying the agency who preformed the act: X broke the vase, not Y. In the other sense it means the assignation of accountability; often coming down to praise or blame; X is responsible for breaking the vase because he could have avoided doing so had he been more careful.
In the first case responsibility can be assigned in both the deterministic and freewill worlds. In the second case it only works where there is freewill.

Well yeah...in terms of who is held accountable for the act. If I can't freely say yay or nay and my actions are determined by any force other than my own, then why should I be held accountable?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

We have the illusion and emotional perception of free will. It just makes us happy the same way that the factual existence of Zeus made many ancient Greeks happy.

So the above post that you typed, did you freely choose to type it, or was your post the result of a force independent of you?

 

[BSM1]

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Discussion of Free will begins at 4:00.

I being the sort of materialist that I am do not believe in free will.

And yet you chose to be here today.