Free Will as Brain Scans Reveal

[Hawkeye112200]

Please check this article out. It mentions some interesting information that may lead to an interesting conversation among us.

Does this prove there is no free will?

The video link on the page has an interesting interview with a professor as well.

Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide” | Exploring The Mind!

 

[Gjallarhorn]

There is no possible explanation of free will that makes sense. This merely adds a real-life example.

 

[Penumbra]

I've heard of studies like this before.

They're interesting and worth studying. That doesn't necessarily imply that impulsive one-time thoughts are identical to longer-term thoughts, though. The decisions to push a button with a finger or choose between two favorite types of desserts are more impulsive and binary than many of the choices people encounter throughout the day, though perhaps further studies or previous studies could link the two and show that longer-term thoughts are not different than a set of individual impulsive thoughts in series.

Free will doesn't make sense to me, mainly because I've never seen a definition of free will that seems logical. If it doesn't pass a definition stage, I don't see how it can pass a test stage.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

I too, have never grasped the concept of free will. I have tried many times, but as you say, there isn't a clear definition of what that means.

This study suggests that our decisions are made before we are even conscious of them. I am still not sure I have my mind wrapped around that yet, either

 

[idav]

Please check this article out. It mentions some interesting information that may lead to an interesting conversation among us.

Does this prove there is no free will?

The video link on the page has an interesting interview with a professor as well.

Brain Scans Can Reveal Your Decisions 7 Seconds Before You “Decide” | Exploring The Mind!

It doesn't say anything for or against free will. The fact that we can see the decision being made doesn't say whether it is free will or not. The question is whether the neuron was free to fire other than what it was caused to and we don't have enough to know what causes specific firing.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I too, have never grasped the concept of free will. I have tried many times, but as you say, there isn't a clear definition of what that means.

This study suggests that our decisions are made before we are even conscious of them. I am still not sure I have my mind wrapped around that yet, either

Kind of makes you wonder if awareness is redundant, dunnit? :sarcastic

 

[Hawkeye112200]

It doesn't say anything for or against free will. The fact that we can see the decision being made doesn't say whether it is free will or not. The question is whether the neuron was free to fire other than what it was caused to and we don't have enough to know what causes specific firing.

Did you watch the video? It did indeed address the topic, but in a fun questioning way. Nothing really scientific about. Just thought provoking. Enjoy.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

Kind of makes you wonder if awareness is redundant, dunnit? :sarcastic

He addressed that in the video. The participant asked the scientist if he was "hostage" to his brain. The scientist said not to think of it like that, but more of a union and coexistence as part of what the brain naturally does.

 

[Penumbra]

The question is whether the neuron was free to fire other than what it was caused to and we don't have enough to know what causes specific firing.

I don't particularly think that's the question either.

Suppose it could have fired a different way- what would have been the cause for this change? What if at a deep level, things are just probabilities, and it could have fired a different way? That doesn't sound too free either.

If something is based on chance, determinism, or any combination of the two, I don't see how free will is an applicable concept. And so far I've yet to see that anything is describable in some other terms than chance or determinism.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Free will is about choices. Once we exercise our free will, to make a choice, we have to 'go with that'.

It is like saying that I have a choice of going to Japan or Russia. I evaluate and exercise my free will to choose Russia. Once I board the flight to Russia, I have to go with my choice.

All situations we find ourselves in, are a reaction of our past actions. How we react to any such situation, presented before us, using our free will, by way of choices we make, that shall determine the course of our future - our destiny!

 

[idav]

I don't particularly think that's the question either.

Suppose it could have fired a different way- what would have been the cause for this change? What if at a deep level, things are just probabilities, and it could have fired a different way? That doesn't sound too free either.

If something is based on chance, determinism, or any combination of the two, I don't see how free will is an applicable concept. And so far I've yet to see that anything is describable in some other terms than chance or determinism.

It might not be chance either. We don't know the cause.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

Free will is about choices. Once we exercise our free will, to make a choice, we have to 'go with that'.

It is like saying that I have a choice of going to Japan or Russia. I evaluate and exercise my free will to choose Russia. Once I board the flight to Russia, I have to go with my choice.

All situations we find ourselves in, are a reaction of our past actions. How we react to any such situation, presented before us, using our free will, by way of choices we make, that shall determine the course of our future - our destiny!

This of course is another case of Dogma. It is what you subscribe to and that is PERFECTLY fine, so don't get me wrong.
However, it is like Penumbra said, there are so many variations, so many suggested concepts, that the idea of Free Will, is akin to using the word Awesome, which has about just as many intangible definitions.

So, with all due respect, please live your life and if this concept floats your boat, then more power to you. I would just caution you to go around declaring it as some sort of gospel truism. Or "it" is as simple as this or that. It is never that simple.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Or "it" is as simple as this or that. It is never that simple.

Actually, it IS as simple. Free will comes from the level of soul. Supreme Lord has given every individual soul a free will. It is like saying 2+2 = 4.

We can choose to say, no it can't be that simple. We make it 1000-996 = 4; or 500-496 = 4; then that is, well ....our FREE WILL of choice!

Think about it...if you so choose to, or simply ignore what I just said! Power to you.

 

[Hawkeye112200]

Actually, it IS as simple. Free will comes from the level of soul. Supreme Lord has given every individual soul a free will. It is like saying 2+2 = 4.

We can choose to say, no it can't be that simple. We make it 1000-996 = 4; or 500-496 = 4; then that is, well ....our FREE WILL of choice!

Think about it...if you so choose to, or simply ignore what I just said! Power to you.

This only works within your frame work of perception of life.

Take a Christian of Calvin ideology. Often times they can't subscribe to the idea of Free Will, because if they did, they could dictate to God at their own leisure when God would save them.

If we have free will in that scenario, we can choose to accept God's salvation as offered, whenever we are ready.
There is a difference, in choosing as you suggest going to Japan or Russia, and whether or not we reincarnate, live for eternity, come back as a cow, etc...

The question then becomes if somethings are of our free will but others aren't, how can we really be sure where the line is divided.

So, to me and others that read your response, that don't view the world as you do, free will does not work.

All I am asking, rather hoping you will understand, is that you "believe" in something that works for you. More power to you. It works for you, because you have a certain way of viewing life, which I respect, but disagree with.

 

[1137]

Here's the thing, even if our brain / mind decides before we are conscious of it, we are still deciding. Your brain is a part of you. The subconscious mind is a part of us, and we are not aware of subconscious wants. Yet they still make us. So you are simply saying that we decide things at a deeper level, which I am fine with. There are most likely outcomes, but not certain ones. It's probable, not absolute.

However, even if you believe in determinism, why act like we do not have free will? Why treat such an illusion as any less real? We know walls aren't really completely solid, but you still won't run into one head first. You act like it is solid because it's an important part of this illusion we call reality.

 

[Skwim]

Actually, it IS as simple. Free will comes from the level of soul. Supreme Lord has given every individual soul a free will. It is like saying 2+2 = 4.

We can choose to say, no it can't be that simple. We make it 1000-996 = 4; or 500-496 = 4; then that is, well ....our FREE WILL of choice!

Think about it...if you so choose to, or simply ignore what I just said! Power to you.

So EXACTLY what is the will and how is it free? To make it easy, simply finish these statements:

1) The will is_______________________________________________________ .

2) Free will is ______________________________________________________ .

 

[Willamena]

Does this prove there is no free will?

I don't see how. Whether you make decisions now or 7 seconds in the future, it's still you making them (taking possession).

 

[Hawkeye112200]

I don't see how. Whether you make decisions now or 7 seconds in the future, it's still you making them (taking possession).

Sort of, but then again you will always do what your brain decided unconsciously to do, and you have no control over that.
At least according to this study.

 

[Willamena]

This of course is another case of Dogma.

I think it's spelled D-h-a-r-m-a.

 

[Willamena]

Sort of, but then again you will always do what your brain decided unconsciously to do, and you have no control over that.
At least according to this study.

Is the unconscious a mechanism? i.e. is it's functionality defined, delineated, visible and (especially) known?

If not, it has no place in a deterministic model.