Free will deniers

[Trailblazer]

*Optimistic*

Very very very very very very few. Have ever grasped the Plan.

Most religious and secular leaders never taste of it's Fruit

That's very true, because most religious and secular leaders are mired in past religious dogmas and they have no Plan for this new age.
The Christians are waiting for Jesus to return and magically fix everything and even those of the other religions await a World Redeemer.

 

[The Hammer]

That's very true, because most religious and secular leaders are mired in past religious dogmas and they have no Plan for this new age.
The Christians are waiting for Jesus to return and magically fix everything and even those of the other religions await a World Redeemer.

Aye, but even when Ragnarok does arrive it will destroy even the Gods. But a new pair will be born anew amidst the Tree of Life.

But those that don't realize that Fate exists and constantly fight against it claiming "Will", are like a fly caught in a web, going nowhere, but still awaiting death..

 

[Trailblazer]

Aye, but even when Ragnarok does arrive it will destroy even the Gods. But a new pair will be born anew amidst the Tree of Life.

But those that don't realize that Fate exists and constantly fight against it claiming "Will", are like a fly caught in a web, going nowhere, but still awaiting death..

We all have different beliefs about what is going to happen in the future, but until it happens they will remain beliefs.

 

[danieldemol]

It's not that the consequences of denying human agency is just something we don't like or wouldn't prefer. It's that it makes ethical discussion incoherent. If you don't believe ethical discussion is incoherent - if you believe it's just and reasonable to hold people morally accountable for what they do - then you know there must be some problem with the premise that we have no agency.

What if one merely believes it is of pragmatic value to society to judge people for what nature made them do for the purpose of safe isolation until they can be rehabilitated *if* they can be rehabilitated?

For example I do not believe in pointing the finger at a murderer for the purpose of saying he/she could have chosen better. What they chose was determined by their brain wiring/chemistry and environmental inputs in my view. So rather than being about finger pointing or assigning blame I would simply say that the murderer has become unsafe to be left free in society unless and until we can modify their brain wiring/chemistry/environment sufficiently that whatever drove them to murder no longer does and then proceed to have them imprisoned for the purpose of safe isolation until that point can be reached if it ever can.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why would I want a will denier at all.
It wouldn't matter if they're free.
I want my will uncontested.

Get your jaundiced rear into the kitchen and make me a sandwich, manservant!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In that case nobody would be responsible for their actions.

Why is that? You still did it, afterall.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thank you. I meant that we can undo the natural course of events.
We can undo the natural selection: in fact, biologists are bringing extinct animals like the dodo back to life.
Through free will.
There is nothing deterministic or random in that.

Hiw does any of that demonstrate free will? It looks to me you jhst see any human action and call it free will without explaining how it's free and how we know it's free. What tests do you propose to demonstrate these actions are freely pursued?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why is that? You still did it, afterall.

If you did it, you are responsible for doing it, unless it was an accident, in which case it was not a choice.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you did it, you are responsible for doing it, unless it was an accident, in which case it was not a choice.

So how is this a problem where people wouldn't be held accountable if we threw free will out the window? Freely done or not, why should be not be held accountable for the consequences of their actions? Aftwr all, many accidents are the result of negligence. Or involuntary manslaughter. You didn't mean to kill but you did.

 

[Estro Felino]

Hiw does any of that demonstrate free will? It looks to me you jhst see any human action and call it free will without explaining how it's free and how we know it's free. What tests do you propose to demonstrate these actions are freely pursued?

If I ask Leonardo Di Caprio to sleep with me, will he say "yes"?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If I ask Leonardo Di Caprio to sleep with me, will he say "yes"?

You've already been over that, and never got back with me on if it's free will that all three of my mom's kids are into BDSM. My sister, my brother, me, all three of us. That doesn't seem anything freely chosen to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

So how is this a problem where people wouldn't be held accountable if we threw free will out the window? Freely done or not, why should be not be held accountable for the consequences of their actions? Aftwr all, many accidents are the result of negligence. Or involuntary manslaughter. You didn't mean to kill but you did.

How could people be held accountable if they did not choose to do something? If people choose to do something that means they have free will.
Involuntary manslaughter is not a deliberate choice but through negligence someone caused the death of another person, so that is a criminal act since they are considered responsible for their choice to be negligent.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How could people be held accountable if they did not choose to do something? If people choose to do something that means they have free will.
Involuntary manslaughter is not a deliberate choice but through negligence someone caused the death of another person, so that is a criminal act since they are considered responsible for their choice to be negligent.

If someone does something they did it. I see no reason why this depends on freewill. We can even play connect the dots and show how very many criminals have common things going on, like coming from poverty. And we know crime and poverty walk together hand in hand. How can this be if free will exists?

 

[Trailblazer]

If someone does something they did it. I see no reason why this depends on freewill. We can even play connect the dots and show how very many criminals have common things going on, like coming from poverty. And we know crime and poverty walk together hand in hand. How can this be if free will exists?

Coming from poverty is a factor in crime, but not everyone who comes from poverty commits crimes. Some people raise themselves up out of poverty.
Some people who come from poverty choose to commit crimes and some don't, since everyone has free will to choose.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Someone on this thread said that "free will" was "free:" able to do something and "will": wanting to do it.
Although I believe in consciousness, I still don't believe in wanting to do something, so I still don't believe in that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Coming from poverty is a factor in crime, but not everyone who comes from poverty commits crimes. Some people raise themselves up out of poverty.
Some people who come from poverty choose to commit crimes and some don't, since everyone has free will to choose.

But how can we be free to choose if we can see such trends?

 

[danieldemol]

Coming from poverty is a factor in crime, but not everyone who comes from poverty commits crimes. Some people raise themselves up out of poverty.
Some people who come from poverty choose to commit crimes and some don't, since everyone has free will to choose.

People choose in accordance with their brain wiring/chemistry and environmental inputs in my view.

Therefore I see people as making choices, but those choices are the sum of their inputs/wiring/chemistry, not independent of it.

This only makes a sham of vengeance based justice systems which are in my opinion themselves a mockery of justice.

But rehabilitative justice systems are not about pointing the finger for the faults caused by nature and saying, "their goes the bad guy", they are about understanding the causes of crime, and safely isolating the criminals until they can be rehabilitated for the protection of society according to my understanding.

 

[Estro Felino]

You've already been over that, and never got back with me on if it's free will that all three of my mom's kids are into BDSM. My sister, my brother, me, all three of us. That doesn't seem anything freely chosen to me.

You do choose your sexual preferences.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You do choose your sexual preferences.

No I didn't. I saw some images in something I was reading one night and learned then and there ropes, chains and handcuffs turn me on. I don't know how it happened for my siblings, but I know at least a few of my nieces amd nephews are also into it.

 

[danieldemol]

You do choose your sexual preferences.

Speaking for myself I dont ever recall making such a choice.