Very little. Don’t be confused, you guys have a serious discussion and I should not have tried to bring Jung into it.And this has ? to do with free will?
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Free will?
- Thread starter Skeptisch
- Start date
Because of the superposition state it is interfering with itself as water molecules do in a wave.
Serge Haroche and David J. Wineland have independently invented and developed ground-breaking
methods for measuring and manipulating individual particles while preserving their quantum-mechanical
nature, in ways that were previously thought unattainable.
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2012/popular-physicsprize2012.pdfmethods for measuring and manipulating individual particles while preserving their quantum-mechanical
nature, in ways that were previously thought unattainable.
I like Bohr's rejoinder to Einstein's "God does not play dice" quip: "Einstein, stop telling God what to do."
1) The superpostion state is a state of one "particle" (entanglement is something else). Thus a photon in a superposition state cannot do anything like water molecules in a wave, because it is the wave. And that's the problem: particles aren't waves.
2) The interference is a pattern on a dectector. It is one we expect of classical waves such as sound. Classical particles and classical waves are fundamentally different beings. Quantum "particle" are neither.
Yes, but this has been going on for the last 30 years (unlike Nobel peace prizes, Nobel prizes in the sciences are awarded some time after the original work or works, because it takes time, review, further experiments by others, etc. to validate the accomplishments). In other words, a lot of these types of observations have taken place over the past decades. They aren't new, nor are they actually measuring quantum superpositional states, but more accurately (see the article here by one of the prize winners) "measure" decoherence and (just as important) retain coherence for a longer period. The article (from 2008) concludes with the following: "As researchers progress towards generating a large-scale quantum-information-processing device, it might be possible to shed light on more fundamental issues of decoherence and why many-particle states with the quantum attributes of Schrödinger's cat are not observed."
Also note that "control" or "manipulation" and observation/measurement are not the same. A 2011 study (also published in Nature) which focuses on the cutting edge implementation of the type of manipulation your article describes nonetheless states "Note that this quantum state estimation, performed on a single quantum trajectory, cannot be obtained from the measurement data only." ("Real-time quantum feedback prepares and stabilizes photon number states"). Again, no direct measurement of superpositional states.
Finally, the importance of this work has less to do with understanding the nature of quantum entanglement, superposition, or quantum reality in general, but is an increasingly popular approach to modern physics: moving away from quantum mechanics and even quantum field theory (or at least what had been the focus of these) into a quantum information approach.
The evidence suggest that it is both a wave and a particle thus the nature of the wave particle dual nature. Both answers are correct. Both classical and quantum aspects are being observed at the same time even in the wave state otherwise we wouldn't see any interference patterns caused by more than one slit. The photon is acting just like the wave of water so it seems pretty straightforward that the photon is being affected by both classical physics and it's quantum state. If the experiment breaks the quantum state then of course all that is left is the classical physics.
That is where I find room for one cause to have more than one effect at the same time. However the actual particle can only be found in one place even if it influenced other areas simultaneously.
The problem here is that anything which has a "dual nature" of wave and particle is, by definition, not "classical". There is nothing in physics, from Newton through Maxwell down to Einstein, which can deal with such phenomena. Either something is a particle, or it is a wave. It is not both. The problem here is that the "interference patterns", which only appear if the photons are not observed, cannot be the result of particles. And waves cannot be particles. Which was what begat quantum mechanics: an inability to deal with something that physics could not deal with, and had no formalisms, no language, no models for.
It's also a violation of the excluded middle, and therefore of our understanding of the correspondence between logic and ontology.
A photon cannot "act like a wave of water". If you shoot molecules of water at a double slit screen, or use a wave pool to generate a wave of water going towards a double slit screen, you will never get anything like the results of the double-slit experiment with photons.
Classical physics does not allow anything to have a dual nature. It does not allow any formalism which describes a system which cannot be, and is never, measured. It has no way of explaining with something which seems to behave like a wave even when it is not, and cannot behave like this under any direct observation or measurement.
No, what's left is an observation or measurement of something that a moment before was described only by a mathematical function with no directly obtainable relation to physical reality. That's not classical physics. It is in fundamental opposition to classical physics.
What I have in mind is a particle that is in two places at once that would still be effected in a classical sense. For example the photons don't go through the material they have to travel through the slits. They are in a quantum state but also going by physics even in a vacuum. The water result is very much similar to the interference pattern of several photons which is the result of a wave going through more than one slit.
How do we know that they do? If we continue to slice up the material (following Feynman here), we continue to get more and more interference patterns until there is no material left. In other words, it seems that in reality the particle is taking all paths through the double-slit screen, but that we are only observing the effects of as many slits as we make. Just like if we had but one opening, we'd only see one result.
It's not that the photons are actually only going down "one path" bit that the interference pattern depends on how many slits we make. We could make many slits, and we wouldn't get any interference if we observed the photons. We can make just two, and get them.
A quantum state is "going by physics" now. In other words, whatever it means to be in a quantum state, or affected by a quantum state, that's physics. But it is not classical.
It's not at all, actually. But that has less to do with the "wave" in water and more to do with the difference between classical waves and ocean waves. However, no classical waves change into particles when you look at them
What also matters, to express the point more, is that if you make the slits further apart or closer, it corresponds to the interference pattern it produces.
Yes but what I'm saying is that something in a quantum state is not suddenly immune to reality and doesn't go through the material but through the slits. It interferes with itself which limits the possible places the photons can land based on the number of slits and how far apart they are.
It is explained that it is very easy to cause a quantum state to collapse. They are still testing real particles that they can pick up with the aid of special instruments. Keeping it in a quantum state is one thing but other than the quantum weirdness it still will obey the rest of the laws of physics.
Or doesn't produce. Classical physics doesn't involve any of this. It can't.
It isnot immune to reality, but it does appear to go through the material. Or rather, it is reality, but as far as we can observe, we cannot see how it is reality. For example the behavior of particles seperated by several kilometers can be fundamentally related to one another. This isn't just going through material, it is an apparent violation of the speed of light restriction and as the behaviour in one region of space(time) corresponds with that of another region instantaneously despite space-like seperations. Likewise, it seems that the only reason we get the interference effects we do is because we ensure that whatever we measure will correspond to how we set things up in a particular way.
It "limits" where we will find evidence of landing (whatever that means).
All this means is that it is very easy to not observe quantum states, but very hard (impossible) to actually observe the fundamental nature of reality.
No, there are some rare occasions when conducting the experiment that the photon actually splits into an entangled pair of lower frequency photons, with the energy of the original photon divided between the entangled pair.
I didn't say it did.
It doesn't appear to do that at all. It acts as particle through only one slit because there is no interference. As soon as you make the second slit there is interference. Water does the same exact thing, the concentration of the wave is only at one point with one slit.
We observed it as baffling as it might be.
That has little to do with what the slit experiment shows. In the slit experiment the particles are shot our of something which is using classical physics to do so. Every action has a separate but equal reaction which is what the slit experiment shows the particles utilizing regardless of it being in a quantum state.
I know what the quantum states imply. As I stated other than the quantum weirdness the particles observe the classical laws.
Right meaning the interference is determined by physical classical conditions.
Yes because of physical limitations in the experiment.
That link I had provided were measuring and observing quantum states so not impossible.
Perhaps when it is in a quantum state but once you break that quantum state or observe it wrong then we find only one particle.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
(There have been RL time constraints, so no mega-post from me just yet.)
Perhaps it would be helpful if we started talking math? English is not suited to discussing this particular part of reality.
Perhaps it would be helpful if we started talking math? English is not suited to discussing this particular part of reality.
(There have been RL time constraints, so no mega-post from me just yet.)
Perhaps it would be helpful if we started talking math? English is not suited to discussing this particular part of reality.
I don't speak in math.
Nevertheless all the Klingon symbols you guys use is quite impressive.
It took years of dedication, cheating off of others' tests, bribery, and most of all, sheer will-power. But in the end, it all paid off. I can now easily bore people almost to death or ruin the "buzz" at any cocktail party.I don't speak in math.
Nevertheless all the Klingon symbols you guys use is quite impressive.
Oh sure, throw the anomalous freaks out, since they are obviously too freaky to fit into civilized quantum society!
Lemme see if I can find a link for you. It's been several years since I've read about it, so there is prolly a lot more information on the web to wade through now then there was then.
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
And I see nothing indicating a decision....a character trait of freewill.
Two recent documentaries were keen on the line drawn...
one aimed directly at how the brain works, and our will is so influenced by built in reflex we hardly do anything we 'think' we are doing!
The other....what makes a genius.....also aims at how the brain works.
But that discussion leans more to the physical makeup of the brain having influence about your abilities.
Together, the info shows your next move to be reflex and conditioning, based on what you were born with.
But to go so far as to say you can't make up your mind?........
And so far...
I see nothing that takes away my judgement call here.
No one else in this thread seems WILLing to say they have a 'will'
Did I over look such posting?
Two recent documentaries were keen on the line drawn...
one aimed directly at how the brain works, and our will is so influenced by built in reflex we hardly do anything we 'think' we are doing!
The other....what makes a genius.....also aims at how the brain works.
But that discussion leans more to the physical makeup of the brain having influence about your abilities.
Together, the info shows your next move to be reflex and conditioning, based on what you were born with.
But to go so far as to say you can't make up your mind?........
And so far...
I see nothing that takes away my judgement call here.
No one else in this thread seems WILLing to say they have a 'will'
Did I over look such posting?