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Free will?

idav

Being
Premium Member
Oh sure, throw the anomalous freaks out, since they are obviously too freaky to fit into civilized quantum society! :p

Lemme see if I can find a link for you. It's been several years since I've read about it, so there is prolly a lot more information on the web to wade through now then there was then.

I dont' doubt it exists. The idea I was discussing with legion was that the particle is in a quantum state but maintains most classical traits except for those that seem to be violated due to superposition and quantum entanglement. However when doing the slit experiments, any time they caused the wave function to collapse they always find only one particle despite the evidence of being in more than one location.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I dont' doubt it exists. The idea I was discussing with legion was that the particle is in a quantum state but maintains most classical traits except for those that seem to be violated due to superposition and quantum entanglement. However when doing the slit experiments, any time they caused the wave function to collapse they always find only one particle despite the evidence of being in more than one location.
Except in the rare cases where the photon split into an entangled pair (of lower frequency) and was detected by both particle detectors. {I'll go look for a link}
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Except in the rare cases where the photon split into an entangled pair (of lower frequency) and was detected by both particle detectors. {I'll go look for a link}

I don't think it would be splitting into two but rather a particle is getting entangled with a particle that already existed. They become entangled because of interaction but the experiments done in a vacuum should very rarely do that if at all.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I don't think it would be splitting into two but rather a particle is getting entangled with a particle that already existed. They become entangled because of interaction but the experiments done in a vacuum should very rarely do that if at all.
This might be a plausible explanation for the rare occurrence of the photon splitting in the experiment.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
I don't think it would be splitting into two but rather a particle is getting entangled with a particle that already existed. They become entangled because of interaction but the experiments done in a vacuum should very rarely do that if at all.
AFAIK, the experiment was done in a vacuum.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It doesn't appear to do that at all.
Yes, but the reason anybody talks about this experiment at all is because what "appears" to happen depends utterly on what we observe.

It acts as particle through only one slit because there is no interference.
It acts like a particle with two, three, four, five, a million slits, as long as you try to observe it.

As soon as you make the second slit there is interference. Water does the same exact thing, the concentration of the wave is only at one point with one slit.

What is the "interference pattern"? It's this:
1-s2.0-S0079663807500077-gr003.jpg


(if you have Java installed there's there's a neat app in which you can play around with waves and interference here)

"Wave interference is the phenomenon that occurs when two waves meet while traveling along the same medium." (link)

In other words, interference can only happen with more than one wave. Whether it is is sound, water, whatever, the interference effect called "interference" because (in the simplest case) one wave interferes with another.

More importantly, waves will always do this (classical waves), in that it doesn't matter if I'm observing water, sound waves, or any classical waves. Waves do not suddenly exhibit particle-like behavior when observed.


We observed it as baffling as it might be.

We didn't. The interference pattern is recorded on a dectection screen is you allow the light to go through however many slits without observing it. In other words, the only "observation" in this experiment is the effect that photons have on, say, something like camera film. Little dots appear on the film, but we don't directly observe anything other than the interaction between the photons and the film. If we try to observe the interaction between the photons and the slit or slits, we will never get interference:
"Here, we report on a quantum delayed-choice experiment in which both particle and wave behaviors are investigated simultaneously. The genuinely quantum nature of the photon’s behavior is certified via nonlocality, which here replaces the delayed choice of the observer in the original experiment. We observed strong nonlocal correlations, which show that the photon must simultaneously behave both as a particle and as a wave."
A Quantum Delayed-Choice Experiment (if you don't have access to Science, you can find a full text of the study here).



That has little to do with what the slit experiment shows.
It's different, but very much related, in that a fundamental component of both experiments is nonlocality. Quantum mechanics, and therefore the fundamental nature of all reality, seems to be nonlocal.


In the slit experiment the particles are shot our of something which is using classical physics to do so.
It's not "using classical physics", any more than you use "classical physics" to walk.

Every action has a separate but equal reaction which is what the slit experiment shows the particles utilizing regardless of it being in a quantum state.

How?

I know what the quantum states imply. As I stated other than the quantum weirdness the particles observe the classical laws.

Yes, but this is a bit like saying "other than the fact that a nuclear bomb relies on fundamentally different principles, and has fundamentally different results, it's still a fire-cracker."

Right meaning the interference is determined by physical classical conditions.
What are "classical conditions"?

Yes because of physical limitations in the experiment.
No. Because for years now, we've had the ability to actually implement what had been only thought experiments. I linked to one above. We can actually determine indirectly both "wave" and "particle" behavior of the same "particle" at the same time.

That link I had provided were measuring and observing quantum states so not impossible.

Not impossible indirectly. That's what we've been doing for years. Using other devices to indirectly "observe" quantum processes. That's what the double-slit experiment does. We can observe the photon directly, or the quantum superposition state indirectly.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
What is the "interference pattern"? It's this:
1-s2.0-S0079663807500077-gr003.jpg


(if you have Java installed there's there's a neat app in which you can play around with waves and interference here)

"Wave interference is the phenomenon that occurs when two waves meet while traveling along the same medium." (link)

In other words, interference can only happen with more than one wave. Whether it is is sound, water, whatever, the interference effect called "interference" because (in the simplest case) one wave interferes with another.

More importantly, waves will always do this (classical waves), in that it doesn't matter if I'm observing water, sound waves, or any classical waves. Waves do not suddenly exhibit particle-like behavior when observed.

Yes I understand but water is molecules which I would consider something of substance that obeys laws of classical physics. Where the waves intersect each other the molecules are forced into a specific direction which is classical physics.

The photons and other particles that act as waves end up with the same interference patterns because they are interfering with itself because of its quantum wave state. So those lines on the picture where the waves interfere is happening to a single particle, which is quite remarkable, but whatever is causing it to be a wave is not exempting it from colliding with itself as with a classical water wave or what have you. The limitations show where a particle cannot go due to it interfering with itself and thus a pattern emerges similar to that of any classical wave. This shows the duality of the particle/wave, they are both, it doesn't just magically become a particle when a wave function collapses, it always was a particle just in a quantum state.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes I understand but water is molecules which I would consider something of substance that obeys laws of classical physics.

There are no "laws of classical physics" there are just "laws of physics". The adjective "classical" is sometimes used to talk about the use of model we know to be wrong but which is accurate enough for most purposes, or for the out-dated and wrong understanding of the "laws of physics" before the advent of QM.


So those lines on the picture where the waves interfere is happening to a single particle
No, actually, that's a sketch from Young's work. Not a single particle. That's a "wave interference" but it is not the interference pattern we get with quantum particles in a superposition state (not exactly). This is because what we get when we fire individual particles is a picture gradually recorded which eventually reveals an interference pattern.

but whatever is causing it to be a wave is not exempting it from colliding with itself as with a classical water wave or what have you.
1) Again, a classical wave does not interfere with itself. Period. It does not happen, and the interference is a description of more than one wave and the way in which these waves interfere with one another.
2) It is not "colliding with itself". Neither waves nor particles do this.
3) If we allow the photons to enter more than one slit, and we do not observe them, they can "land" in a way which, over time, reveals a pattern we can't explain through any classical means. It is a pattern we would expect to get when waves interfere with other waves. But there were no waves.

The limitations show where a particle cannot go due to it interfering with itself and thus a pattern emerges similar to that of any classical wave.

It doesn't show this. At all. Classical waves do not interfere with themselves. And what it shows is that we can detect a pattern we cannot explain, and cannot directly observe, through anything even remotely classical.

This shows the duality of the particle/wave, they are both

They cannot be both. A wave has a certain definition. So does a particle. To say something is both is to contradict both definitions.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
No, actually, that's a sketch from Young's work. Not a single particle. That's a "wave interference" but it is not the interference pattern we get with quantum particles in a superposition state (not exactly). This is because what we get when we fire individual particles is a picture gradually recorded which eventually reveals an interference pattern.
I know what your saying here and agree but it doesn't change what I said.

I also understand what your saying about it all being physics but I'm trying to distinguish classical from quantum because both are being observed either independantly or simultaneously.

Further your quote said, they are both happening at the same time which is precicely what I'm saying.

We observed strong nonlocal correlations, which show that the photon must simultaneously behave both as a particle and as a wave."

When you send one particle through two slits it ends up showing an interference pattern. Why? My guess would be because the one wave that is the one particle became two waves because of the two slits just like the water example. A particle can only do this if it is being interfered with almost identically to the way two water waves interfere with each other.

When sending one particle at a time the interference patter emerges at random intervals but essentially shows that they are a wave and spread out in order to give the same type of data a water wave would. If the particle does not interfere with itself it will not show an interference pattern. Further there would not be empty spaces with no particles if the particle was just everywhere going through walls. The experiment shows that the particles are interfered with at random but not so random that any path is possible.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I also understand what your saying about it all being physics but I'm trying to distinguish classical from quantum because both are being observed either independantly or simultaneously.

Put it this way then: why only classical or quantum? Why not quantum field theory? or String theory? Or quantum information theory? Or any number of other possibilities besides getting hung up over whether something is "classical" or "quantum"?


Further your quote said, they are both happening at the same time which is precicely what I'm saying.

They are not "both happening at the same time", but we measure both types of behaviors at the same time (i.e., particle and wave behaviors, not particles and waves). If something is behaving like a particle and a wave at the same time, it is fundamentally, completely, utterly, and in all other ways non-classical. The most important thing to understand is the difference between showing that some system can behave like it is composed of particles or behave like it is waves, but if it can behave like both at the same time, then it is neither.

This is where Schrödinger's cat comes in:

"At the same time, it was also recognized early that the predictions of quantum theory imply that, by coupling a microscopic system to a macroscopic system, these quantum features should be transferable to the classical appearing objects around us, in obvious contradiction to our experience. Of course, no other example has illustrated this problem of the quantum-to-classical transition more poignantly and drastically than Schr¨odinger’s infamous cat, which appears, by the verdict of quantum theory, to be doomed into a netherworldy superposition of being alive and dead.
In this paradox, Schrödinger imagined a cat confined to a box. Inside the box, the decay of an unstable atom serves as a trigger for the hammer to break a vial containing poison. The release of the poison will then kill the cat. According to the laws of quantum mechanics, the atom is at all times described by a superposition of “decayed” and “not decayed.” The feature of quantum entanglement (see below) then implies that this superposition spreads to the total system containing the cat, hammer, and poison, which must then be described by a superposition of two states which seem mutually exclusive according to our experience. One state corresponds to the atom not yet decayed, the hammer untriggered, the vial unharmed, and thus the cat alive. The other state represents a situation in which the atom has decayed, the hammer has broken the vial, and the poison thus released has killed the cat.
The second part of the paradox is established by the appearance of an external observer. When the observer opens the box, standard quantum theory predicts that she will “collapse” the superposition onto one of its two component states. Thus it is ensured that the observer will perceive only either one of these states, in agreement with our experience. The observer would therefore seem to suddenly decide the fate of the cat by simply looking at the unfortunate animal. The paradox, then, consists of the simple question: What was the state of the cat before the observer opened the box? Alive or dead, both alive and dead, or neither? Has this question any meaning at all?" pp. 2-3 of Schlosshauer's Decoherence and the Quantum-to-Classical Transition (The Frontiers Collection).

The idea that something is both a particle and a wave is akin to saying that the cat is both alive and dead at the same time, and further that it only takes one form or the other if we look.



When you send one particle through two slits it ends up showing an interference pattern. Why? My guess would be because the one wave that is the one particle became two waves because of the two slits just like the water example. A particle can only do this if it is being interfered with almost identically to the way two water waves interfere with each other.

A particle cannot do this. Period. That's it. A particle is a particle, and when it hits something, it reacts like a particle. A wave is a wave, and when it interacts with another wave in a local region, the two interfere with one another

You can shoot molecules of water at slits your whole life, and you never find them doing creating interference patterns.

When sending one particle at a time the interference patter emerges at random intervals but essentially shows that they are a wave and spread out in order to give the same type of data a water wave would.

A water wave would not. Nor would a sound wave. It takes two waves to interfere with one another.

If the particle does not interfere with itself it will not show an interference pattern.
A particle cannot show an interference pattern. Interference is the product of interaction between waves.

What is classical mechanics? When did it appear? After Newton? If so, then what are we to say of the fundamentally changed versions aft the work of people like Laplace, Hamilton, Maxwell, Rutherford, Young, etc.? The physics of Newton was very different than the physics of the 19th century. Yet we call it Newtonian physics, or classical physics. The reason is that even though much work was done before and after Newton, and even thought things like fields and waves and equations of motion were constantly being added, changed, updated, etc., nobody thought "wait a minute, there is no phlogiston! Classical physics is wrong!" Likewise, nobody said "well, we have to figure out what's going on here, because classical physics says the atom is like plum pudding, but it seems like it has a center with electrons orbiting it. So which atoms are "classical" and which are "nuclear""?

It was just physics, and even though it changed, none of these changes really altered the way physics understood reality. They just thought they now understood it better.

Quantum physics was an entirely different ball game. It completely altered physics in such a fundamental way that the founders, Einstein included, detested it. Einstein spent hears trying to show that Quantum theory was fundamentally flawed. He failed. So did everyone else (Rosen, Bell, Schrödinger and his infamous cat, etc.). Einstein and others seemed to have little difficulty with the idea that space and time were fundamentally related, because the idea of a reference frame wasn't new, and thus as radical as the STR and GTR were, they only changed how we experienced reality in ways that matter for science fiction, or perhaps SETI. Spacetime and spacetime curvature may not be the way we experience reality, but the fact that a someone on a space shuttle comes back having experienced a couple of microseconds less than I did doesn't alter things for practical purposes.

Quantum physics is a theory about all of matter. The reason Schrödinger's cat is a "paradox" is not just the duality, but the realization (which has only increased as we have observed quantum processes at play at the molecular level and above), that this utterly foreign idea of matter being fundamentally nonlocal is not only counter to everything we experience, but makes up everything we are.

Thus, if all it took was saying "the particle is behaving like two wave. Problem solved." Einstein, Podesky, Rosen, Bohr, Bohm, Heisenberg, Schrödinger, Dirac, and others would not have spent their entire lives trying to figure out what was going on.

Further there would not be empty spaces with no particles if the particle was just everywhere going through walls.
There is no such thing as empty space precisely because quantum states involve being in multiple states (and "places") at the same time. The question is what we can perceive.

Why can we detect interference after shooting single "particles" down 2, or 3, or more slits only if we let the "particles" go unobserved? Because observation fundamentally changes their state, nature, and behavior. What are we doing when we put up a screen to detect where the particles hit? Observing.

The experiment shows that the particles are interfered with at random but not so random that any path is possible.

They don't show that at all. And subsequent experiments have throughly disproved this, quite apart from the fact that saying "particles" can show an interference pattern is like saying that time can act like a particle.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
They are not "both happening at the same time", but we measure both types of behaviors at the same time (i.e., particle and wave behaviors, not particles and waves).

Your saying the same thing as me here. Particle and wave behaviors is what I was calling the particle being in a quantum state.

What the particle is doing is flowing like water would when going through the slits. Flowing water does not violate any classical view of our world but how one single particle is able to do that is quite extraordinary. There are the same constraints to the particle as there would be one single water molecule flowing through a wave, not very predictable but not impossible.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Your saying the same thing as me here. Particle and wave behaviors is what I was calling the particle being in a quantum state.

What the particle is doing is flowing like water would when going through the slits. Flowing water does not violate any classical view of our world but how one single particle is able to do that is quite extraordinary. There are the same constraints to the particle as there would be one single water molecule flowing through a wave, not very predictable but not impossible.
A single water molecule can't flow like a wave. A classical particle has exactly one path through space.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Your saying the same thing as me here. Particle and wave behaviors is what I was calling the particle being in a quantum state.

What the particle is doing is flowing like water would when going through the slits. Flowing water does not violate any classical view of our world but how one single particle is able to do that is quite extraordinary. There are the same constraints to the particle as there would be one single water molecule flowing through a wave, not very predictable but not impossible.
Perhaps particles are "kinks" in the waves?

(Kink can be used in the sense of twist in a thread, or a trigger point in a muscle fibers, or perhaps even the Sine-Gordon equation.)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I mean that a water molecule would flow when in water. The particle flows as if it were in water.
How? If we have two slits, and we only "observe" these photons, one at a time, as they hit some detection screen. The pattern on the film looks as if we had not fired any photons at all, but rather had split a wave into two, such that they interfered. If we fire these photons, wait until they go through the slits exactly as they did before, only this time we don't wait for them to hit the film, we will never see them behave anything like a wave.

So, in situation 1, the photons interact with the slits, and each photon seems to go through every slit, no matter how many slits we make, and we know this because after they interact with the slits, the pattern we see on the detection film shows us this.

But, in situation 2, the photons again interact with the slits, only this time we don't wait for them all to hit the film. The interference pattern starts showing up, but then we remove the screen and look down our telescopes to see the "wave-like" photons that were about to hit the film (and which had already gone through the slits). Only we don't see a wave. The "inteference" doesn't occur.

How is this possible? They photons have already interacted with the slits. All we've done is removed the film which shows the interference patterns, but right before some photons (which have already interacted with the slits, and which would, if we left the flim there, show a wave-like property), "hit" the film in their wave-like state. Only we don't see wave, we don't see interference all we see are particles.

Film there, they are "wave-like", remove film, they aren't, but after they are already supposed to be "wave-like".

How did the photons "know" that we we were trying to trick them? How did they "know" to be particles this time, because if they didn't, we'd see them in naked, wavy, selves? Since when are particles so modest, even downright prudish?
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
How? If we have two slits, and we only "observe" these photons, one at a time, as they hit some detection screen. The pattern on the film looks as if we had not fired any photons at all, but rather had split a wave into two, such that they interfered. If we fire these photons, wait until they go through the slits exactly as they did before, only this time we don't wait for them to hit the film, we will never see them behave anything like a wave.

So, in situation 1, the photons interact with the slits, and each photon seems to go through every slit, no matter how many, which we know because after they interact with the slits, they pattern of we see on the detection film shows us this.

But, in situation 2, the photons again interact with the slits, only this time we don't wait for them all to hit the film. The interference pattern starts, showing up, but then we remove the screen and look down our telescopes to see the "wave-like" photons that were about to hit the film (and which had already gone through the slits). Only we don't see a wave. They "inteference" doesn't occur.

How is this possible? They photons have already interacted with the slits. All we've done is removed the film which shows the interference patterns, but right before some photons (which have already interacted with the slits, and which would, if we left the flim there, show a wave-like property), "hit" the film in their wave-like state. Only we don't see wave, we don't see interference all we see are particles.

Film there, they are "wave-like", remove film, they aren't, but after they are already supposed to be "wave-like".

How did the photons "know" that we we were trying to trick them? How did they "know" to be particles this time, because if they didn't, we'd see them in naked, wavy, selves? Since when are particles so modest, even downright prudish?
As much as I've read on the experiments and the books I've read I can't understand the quantum mysticism approach of particle knowing what is going on. I think there is a more logical explanation.

The way I see the answer to your question is to consider the particle as a wave for a moment. When one wave is going through two slits, then two waves are produced. Same as one wave of water going through two slits rather than one slit. I'm not sure how the particle is doing it I just know it is in fact doing that cause that is what the evidence suggests. Even so the particle is still a single particle that will only land on one place in the screen regardless of the interference that occurs.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
As much as I've read on the experiments and the books I've read I can't understand the quantum mysticism approach of particle knowing what is going on. I think there is a more logical explanation.

The way I see the answer to your question is to consider the particle as a wave for a moment. When one wave is going through two slits, then two waves are produced. Same as one wave of water going through two slits rather than one slit. I'm not sure how the particle is doing it I just know it is in fact doing that cause that is what the evidence suggests. Even so the particle is still a single particle that will only land on one place in the screen regardless of the interference that occurs.
Unless of course, if it splits into an entangled pair. (See post #244)
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Unless of course, if it splits into an entangled pair. (See post #244)

I had mentioned that it doesn't split into an entangle pair. It gets entangled with another particle already in existence. In the experiment you referred to there wasn't a single photon sent but a laser beam of photons.

Quantum entanglement occurs when particles such as photons, electrons, molecules as large as buckyballs,[1][2] and even small diamonds[3][4] interact physically and then become separated; the type of interaction is such that each resulting member of a pair is properly described by the same quantum mechanical description (state), which is indefinite in terms of important factors such as position,[5] momentum, spin, polarization, etc.​

Quantum entanglement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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