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Free will?

Warren Clark

Informer
Not too many of us suggest we have no free will in our everyday life.

However it does get kind of mystical when we wonder about what is happening, after a bout of idle mind, upstream from the underlying causes of our next thought.

Any thoughts anybody?
:human:

Free Will is controlled by our need to survive. If we were to choose between our life and someone else', we would end up choosing our own life, as long as it were equal to ours. Such as many people would trade their lives to allow a younger person to live because they have yet more time due on earth.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
So, you own yourself. That's great. How does that apply to will at all?
The various and sundry debates about free will all centre around contrasting it to other things. With "predetermination," God owns "me"; with "determinism," nature owns "me." The freedom of will is liberty, the capacity of an agent to do his own bidding, to "own" everything he does and everything he is, especially "me" who is at the heart of every action and thought that is "mine" and every act and opinion "I" make.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
The freedom of will is liberty, the capacity of an agent to do his own bidding, to "own" everything he does and everything he is, especially "me" who is at the heart of every action and thought that is "mine" and every act and opinion "I" make.
Seems loopy. It's like looking at a tree and claiming you made it, or listening to music and saying you wrote it. Thoughts arise in the mind and you are taking credit from them. Actions are performed and you are taking credit for them. How is this "free will"? Sounds like self-delusion to me.
 

MD

qualiaphile
AFAWK, there are no significant quantum patterns in the brain. People are crap random number generators.


Keeping aside Stapp, Penrose and Hameroff I think there are strong reasons to suspect quantum processes play a significant role in decision making. Here's an example from an article by Christof Koch

How Physics and Neuroscience Dictate Your "Free" Will: Scientific American

"The brains of bees, beagles and boys, by comparison, are vastly more heterogeneous, and the components out of which they are constructed have a noisy character. Randomness is apparent everywhere in their nervous system, from sensory neurons picking up sights and smells to motor neurons controlling the body’s muscles. We cannot rule out the possibility that quantum indeterminacy likewise leads to behavioral indeterminacy.

Such randomness may play a functional role. If a housefly pursued by a predator makes a sudden, abrupt turn midflight, it is more likely to see the light of another day than its more predictable companion. Thus, evolution might favor circuits that exploit quantum randomness for certain acts or decisions. Both quantum mechanics and deterministic chaos lead to unpredictable outcomes."
 

MD

qualiaphile
Do you have an example?

You live your whole life as a theist, in a strongly theistic country where even questioning the idea of God can land you in jail. You have never heard of doubt, yet you do even though you haven't been exposed to That doubt had no other prior exposure.

I'm not sure what is meant by "quantum processes in the brain"...

If information is transmitted through quantum computing then an infinite array of possibilities become available when processing such information. This is what occurs in imagination imo.
 

methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
You live your whole life as a theist, in a strongly theistic country where even questioning the idea of God can land you in jail. You have never heard of doubt, yet you do even though you haven't been exposed to That doubt had no other prior exposure.
Of course you would have heard of it. Else there'd be no need to jail those who question the idea of God, because there wouldn't be anyone questioning God!

If information is transmitted through quantum computing then an infinite array of possibilities become available when processing such information. This is what occurs in imagination imo.

Ok, I'll rephrase. What do you mean when you use "quantum" in the phrase "quantum processes in the brain"?

A quantum is the smallest unit of matter in an interaction. We use this unit when we are talking about physical interactions at the atomic and subatomic level. The quantum plays an important role in our understanding of physics at the atomic level.

What this has to do with free will, I'm not too sure
 

MD

qualiaphile
Of course you would have heard of it. Else there'd be no need to jail those who question the idea of God, because there wouldn't be anyone questioning God!

Not if you nor your relatives ever heard about the jail.

I also disagree to your other points, one can think completely novel thoughts. It's called imagination. I can imagine a loopy string playing a violin even though I've never been exposed to such a thing. Or a sun crying, or fantasize about Megan Fox.

As an atheist one can argue that God is a novel thought since at one point it had to be 'made up' by someone. The same principle can be applied to anything completely novel and innovative. Like when democracy was created. Or Algebra, the concept of 0, infinity, etc.


Ok, I'll rephrase. What do you mean when you use "quantum" in the phrase "quantum processes in the brain"?

A quantum is the smallest unit of matter in an interaction. We use this unit when we are talking about physical interactions at the atomic and subatomic level. The quantum plays an important role in our understanding of physics at the atomic level.

What this has to do with free will, I'm not too sure

I gave you an example of quantum computing and an article as well by a world famous neuroscientist who explains how quantum processes may be beneficial. If our brains use quantum computing which converts information into 0 and 1, all possibilities between 0 and 1 can be realized.
 
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methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
I disagree, one can think completely novel thoughts. It's called imagination. I can imagine a loopy string playing a violin even though I've never been exposed to such a thing. Or a sun crying, or fantasize about Megan Fox.

As an atheist one can argue that God is a novel thought since at one point it had to be 'made up' by someone.
What you HAVE been exposed to before, is A loopy string, and a violin, and you have the capacity to put concepts together. You have been exposed to the concepts of Sun and of Crying, and are able to put those together etc etc etc.

Just because something is put together in a way that hasn't been done before, doesn't mean that the thoughts and processes leading up to it weren't caused by previous inputs. Everyone's experience is unique, so statistically, there must necessarily be new ideas and new concepts.



I gave you an example of quantum computing and an article as well by a world famous neuroscientist who explains how quantum processes may be beneficial. If our brains use quantum computing which converts information into 0 and 1, all possibilities between 0 and 1 can be processed.
Sorry, didn't see that one. I'll check it out some time when it's not 10mins before I have to leave for work :p
 

MD

qualiaphile
What you HAVE been exposed to before, is A loopy string, and a violin, and you have the capacity to put concepts together. You have been exposed to the concepts of Sun and of Crying, and are able to put those together etc etc etc.

Just because something is put together in a way that hasn't been done before, doesn't mean that the thoughts and processes leading up to it weren't caused by previous inputs. Everyone's experience is unique, so statistically, there must necessarily be new ideas and new concepts.

I gave you further examples of conceptual ideas that did not exist before they were created. Please read that as well.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Seems loopy. It's like looking at a tree and claiming you made it, or listening to music and saying you wrote it. Thoughts arise in the mind and you are taking credit from them. Actions are performed and you are taking credit for them. How is this "free will"? Sounds like self-delusion to me.
If you maintain that the idea that 'thoughts that arise in the mind' is credible, then it follows that thoughts of "I" and of "ownership" that arise in the mind are credible.

"Taking credit" implies that someone or something else owns that credit. If "I" cannot own actions, why would the claim for anyone or anything else to own them be any more credible?
 

methylatedghosts

Can't brain. Has dumb.
I gave you further examples of conceptual ideas that did not exist before they were created. Please read that as well.

The same applies - the base concepts already existed, and they were just put together in ways not previously done. I just picked the sun crying because that's easier - there are only two concepts to work with there. Three if you include the idea that a sun could do anything more than perform nuclear reactions :p

Democracy, for example, could have come around by adding together the concepts of leadership, discussion/debate, working together, that different people have different ideas etc.



I feel I should stress that I'm not arguing for my own view. I personally believe free will exists.
 

MD

qualiaphile
The same applies - the base concepts already existed, and they were just put together in ways not previously done. I just picked the sun crying because that's easier - there are only two concepts to work with there. Three if you include the idea that a sun could do anything more than perform nuclear reactions :p

Democracy, for example, could have come around by adding together the concepts of leadership, discussion/debate, working together, that different people have different ideas etc.

I think linking idea of altruism/social cohesion and democracy has a lot of problems in it. First of all we don't know how to define altruism fully. There's the scientific explanation of altruism, the idea of inclusive fitness. But when we get into how altruism feels, the qualia of altruism that is unknown scientifically.

Also democracy needs free market economics to function and free market economics aren't really the most beneficial economic system for people. If we were to have created a set of laws and rules based on our evolutionary history, then socialism would have been a much better option and should have won the cold war. Almost all hunter gatherer tribes were socialist and cooperative in their makeup, but almost all civilizations that followed were the exact opposite.

Now you can say that democracy and capitalism are mutually exclusive, but I disagree. They are interdependant on each other. Democracy is also not only about altruism and social cohesion. It's a conceptual system with laws that do not really have an evolutionary mechanisms to ensure their survival. A lot of it we just made up. Freedom is something we cherish in democracies, but the Milgram experiment shows that most people actually are made to be followers.

One can also argue that God was just made up, that God does not exist. If that is true then a completely novel idea was just invented, as a metaphorical representation of our universe. Even if that were true, what is a metaphor? How can you explain how we convert objective observations into subjective interpretations?
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
If you maintain that the idea that 'thoughts that arise in the mind' is credible, then it follows that thoughts of "I" and of "ownership" that arise in the mind are credible.
Not at all. Credibility is derived from evidence, not just the idea itself. Otherwise Alice in Wonderland is perfectly credible.

"Taking credit" implies that someone or something else owns that credit. If "I" cannot own actions, why would the claim for anyone or anything else to own them be any more credible?
It isn't, in the same line of thought that you can't own the Moon just because no one else claims it. I would own those actions just as much as you do, as long as I claim them.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You seem very confused.

Free will is the ability to choose otherwise. Now let's take the only two options available: your decision is lawful or it is random. If your decision is lawful, there is no ability to choose otherwise, because it happens according to laws, much like a computer. If your decision is random, then "you" had no control over the decision anymore than a random number generator "chooses" its result.

You are saying that free will requires no outside force, which would imply that you are talking about the second option of randomness. Otherwise it does require an outside force: computers need inputs in order to create outputs.

Free will, as a concept, is nonsensical.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems you are saying that humans, being composed of matter/chemicals/elements (i.e., we are physical entities composed of physical parts), like all of the physical universe are constrained by the laws of physics, and thus no matter how complicated or even impossible in practice it might be to determine (predict) exactly what a human will do, this is akin to the way we can't predict the weather more than a few degrees in advance and only with a certain amount of confidence. In principle, classicality holds we theoretically could predict, but there are just too many variables which are too sensitive to do so (epistemic indeterminism). Additionally, the only alternative to this is randomness, such that anything is either random or it is theoretically possible to determine the evolution of any system from some arbitrary time t to some time t + n where n can be arbitrarily large or small.

There are a few potential problems here. The first is a matter of terms. What does "random" mean? A informal description of perhaps the most common formal definition is "An object is random if it is disorganized, has no patterns, no regularities" (from p. 97 of Nies' Computability and Randomness; Vol. 51 of Oxford Logic Guides, 2009). However, as randomness was defined in terms of information theory, and as information theory, computer science, quantum physics, and in particular complexity have all come a long way, there are other ways to approach randomness even within information theory (e.g., weak randomness, Schnorr randomness, Demuth randomness, etc.). What all of these have in common is that
1) they are all related to complexity and
2) tests of randomness rely on the incompressibility of information (and, therefore, on computatibility in formal systems)

The important point, however, is that thanks a number of developments in different fields, we can approach randomness in quite nuanced ways which are quite relevant here. For example, the Solovay-Strassen randomized algorithm uses randomness to determine probability, specifically the probability that a number is prime, with certainty (it is essential to understand that this algorithim doesn't tell you whether the integer is prime with certainty, but only with a probability approaching certainty). Not only, then, is randomness here used to determine probability, but this was also an early challenge to the so-called "strong" Church-Turing theory.

In classical computing, randomness is used, as above, as part of the logic of the algorithm. In quantum information/computation theory, randomness is used as part of the physical process which determines the result. In other words, the "randomness" is an essential part of the process which makes it possible for a quantum system to return a result/output. In each case, however, randomness is essential for (certain types of) information processing/computing.

That's what brains do: process information. So how does randomness factor into the human computation/information processing system in a way that says something about "free will"?

The next (and far larger) issue is that of "outside force". Complex systems are capable of self-organization, and for biological systems so much is this the case that it does not appear possible to model them even in principle using classical methods. Whether this is because of quantum processes, or because our understanding of macroscopic dynamics with respect to classicality is too poor (i.e., classical mechanics is not actualy capable of dealing with everything at the macroscopic level, and quantum-like properties and processes are involved in the behavior of complex systems), or whether it is just our ability to model complexity, biological systems appear operate in ways inconsistent with classical physics. In other words, it appears that quite apart from humans, biological systems in general are capable of patterns which are not reliant on outside forces but the product of self-organization.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
That's what brains do: process information. So how does randomness factor into the human computation/information processing system in a way that says something about "free will"?
Well, assuming human computation is based on randomness, you can't claim to choose the result, can you? Otherwise, would it count as random?

In other words, it appears that quite apart from humans, biological systems in general are capable of patterns which are not reliant on outside forces but the product of self-organization.
The hand draws itself on the macroscopic level?
 

MD

qualiaphile
Well, assuming human computation is based on randomness, you can't claim to choose the result, can you? Otherwise, would it count as random?

If human computation is based on randomness then the number of choices from which we can choose from are infinite. If for example you believe that x --> y --> z then choice is an illusion.

However if x1 -- > y4 --> possibilities of z1,z2,z3,zn then it is highly plausible that we evolved mechanisms through which we would choose the most advantageous option.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
If human computation is based on randomness then the number of choices from which we can choose from are infinite. If for example you believe that x --> y --> z then choice is an illusion.

However if x1 -- > y4 --> possibilities of z1,z2,z3,zn then it is highly plausible that we evolved mechanisms through which we would choose the most advantageous option.
What chooses?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Not at all. Credibility is derived from evidence, not just the idea itself. Otherwise Alice in Wonderland is perfectly credible.

It isn't, in the same line of thought that you can't own the Moon just because no one else claims it. I would own those actions just as much as you do, as long as I claim them.
Nonsense--what evidences "thoughts arise in the mind"?

If you can't "own the moon," then there is no "credit taken."
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What does faith necessarily have to do with freewill?

Some people believe in free will because (or perhaps primarily because) it is a component of their religious or spiritual faith. Others, however, do not believe in free will because of their faith in some particular dogma, worldview, etc.

While an understanding of causation has certainly changed over the centuries, as have a myriad of other concepts, causal determinism (the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature) has always retained its identity. Or is it that everything old must be outdated? Please say "No."

First, this is just demonstrably false at the outset. Not only is the idea of "laws of nature" a fairly modern idea, entire philosophies (or at least worldviews) have been based around conceptions of reality antithetical to those grounded in causation.

Western philosophy, which heavily influenced the advent of science and its progress (i.e., a systematic investigation of phenomena based on the idea that a certain amount of order exists in the universe such that under the right circumstances, experimentation allows one to reveal underlying structures, laws, and properties of reality or components of it), rests mainly on the work of Aristotle. As Walter Ott points out (p. 21), causation had much more to do with intrinsic properties and conditions of phenomena, but "at no point in those conditions would we have to enter anything like '... and assuming the laws of nature remain the same.’ For the notion of a law in this contemporary sense is alien to the Aristotelian family of positions." (Causation & Laws of Nature in Early Modern Philosophy; Oxford University Press, 2009).

Descartes was more or less behind the idea of "the laws of nature", but neither he nor those who followed understood causes and effects as encapsulating everything according to these laws. This is both because he specifically defined these "laws" in terms of the motion of material objects, and because he saw them as emanating from God (who created an "orderly" universe which entailed consistent rules governing certain types of material/object properties and dynamics).

Not only, then, do we not find this schema ("every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature") within Western philosophy even of the modern era (although parts of it are certainly found), even today both philosophical and (to the extent it exists) scientific discussions of cause/effect still employ reference to Cartesian dualism.

Finally, there is the issue of determinism vs. causation. As Mark Balaguer notes in his book Free Will as an Open Scientific Problem (MIT Press, 2010), most philosophers/scientists before quantum mechanics generally held that determinism was at worst not an obstacle for free will, and at best required for it. However, the "emergence of QM undermined the traditional way of understanding the problem of free will by undermining our prima facia reasons for believing determinism, and indeed, by revealing that determinism is not the sort of doctrine that can be motivated by prima facie, pretheoretic, armchair arguments. Rather, it is a controversial empirical thesis about the workings of the physical world..." (p. 8; emphasis added).

What, then, is the motivation for believing something like:
While an understanding of causation has certainly changed over the centuries, as have a myriad of other concepts, causal determinism (the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature) has always retained its identity. Or is it that everything old must be outdated? Please say "No."

It has no real historical reality, it is inconsistent with most pre-20th century approaches to both free will and to causation, and it is almost completely incompatible with current work in sciences relating to the mind, complex systems (and therefore determinism), and physics. Causes are "properties" inherent in reality only in some philosophical theories, not intrinsic properties of reality (same with effect).

A simple example will suffice: I open the door to the place where I store my food, looking for something to eat. I scan what is available, and see that I have two types of snack food: a healthy granola bar, and unhealthy cookies. I ponder a bit about the fact that I'm trying to be healthy, and I should really go with the healthy snack, but in the end I decide to have the cookies.

At the instant my choice is made, what caused it? I could say evolution, because I crave fats, salts, and sweets thanks to conditions of life thousands of years ago when food was hard to come by and an adaptive strategy (namely, favoring food rich in what my body needs most, like fats and sodium) has become maladaptive. Or I could say it was whatever company manufactured the food. Or I could say that it was my nervous system which "informed me" that I was hungry. Or I could go with all of these and more. The problem, though, even without getting into emergent properties, self-governing systems, etc., is mainly two-fold:

1) Even if I look at everything which led up to the moment I made my choice, at the moment I did make it, a number of processes are at play such that I can't seperate cause from effect. I can't choose the cookies without seeing them, and thus my eyes are clearly a cause. But my eyes simply relay "information" which is interpreted in various parts of my brain. So clearly I require an ability to interpret visual stimuli conceptually, which means that a semantic, distributed network of activity is clearly a cause as well. Yet my choice, the decision not to go with the healthy choice, is part of that conceptual network of neural activity. I can't "choose" as a result of understanding, because part of my choice includes this understanding.

2) Even worse, if we were to look within the various neural networks involved in this choice, from those which interpeted visual stimuli to those which were involved in understanding what "cookies" represent, there is no way determine causal order. In the instant of choice, my brain is active. An instant before, it was as well. But not all the changes are part of my choice. Nor can I identify a single neuron which I could say was a cause vs. an effect. Even if consciousness and choice are not emergent properties, or governed in part by quantum indeterminancy realized by my choice, and even if I were able to identify what each and every neuron was "doing" in terms of how it contributed to some thought or bodily state, the change from the instant of my choice from the instant before it involves neurons whose state can be said to be either cause or effect depending on whether or not I decide that x groups were somehow more the "choice" part than y groups.

Even within deterministic systems, causality can be an arbitrary attribution. This is because causes and effects were always attributed either to properties or to processes or to both, but were never akin to "laws of nature" because they exist only as linguistic terms whose conceptual basis is attributed to certain states based on (and inseperable from) the concepts themselves.
 
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