Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
Observation.Nonsense--what evidences "thoughts arise in the mind"?
Exactly. So you no longer own those actions. I do.If you can't "own the moon," then there is no "credit taken."
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Observation.Nonsense--what evidences "thoughts arise in the mind"?
Exactly. So you no longer own those actions. I do.If you can't "own the moon," then there is no "credit taken."
Ownership is only as credible as the usage of it implies within a given system. Maybe a martial claimed the moon a million years ago. I is just for reference.If you maintain that the idea that 'thoughts that arise in the mind' is credible, then it follows that thoughts of "I" and of "ownership" that arise in the mind are credible.
"Taking credit" implies that someone or something else owns that credit. If "I" cannot own actions, why would the claim for anyone or anything else to own them be any more credible?
You assume, without proving so, that there is a single instant in which you make the choice.At the instant my choice is made, what caused it?
Well, assuming human computation is based on randomness, you can't claim to choose the result, can you? Otherwise, would it count as random?
Self-governing, self-fabrication, and nonlinear (cyclical) causality are part of cellular behavior. Essentially, whether we are talking about a cell or an organism, functional components contribute to the state of the system, but cannot be abstracted from the activity of the system without significantly decreasing any ability to understand the state of the system. So, for example, cellular metabolism and repair are functional processes governed by components of the system (the cell), yet the states of the components responsible for these functional processes also (and at the same time) result from them. Metabolites are the "cause" of the function metabolism (i.e., the metabolic process as conceptual abstraction or model of a number of processes which form a functional whole), but this same function, which is the result of basically the entire cell, also affects the entire cell. The function is a product of coordinated cellular activity which is also a result of that function.The hand draws itself on the macroscopic level?
You assume, without proving so, that there is a single instant in which you make the choice.
How is it so? From Rohrlich's contribution to the edited volume Probability in Physics (from Springer's edited series The Frontiers Collection, 2012): "Having redefined the axiom of nonlocality, we must now redefine also the axiom of causality. We cannot say, No action at a distance can be used to send signals, when action at distance is itself a signal. We can only say that the signal cannot be outside the forward light cone of the act of sending it. So we are back to relativistic causality" (p. 194). Rohrlich continues on a back-and-forth discussion about nonlocality, light cones, and causality, and concludes "This is jamming, within quantum mechanics! Hence the question of whether quantum mechanics is the unique theory reconciling causality and action at a distance remains open after all." (p. 199). Now, one can certainly disagree with Rohrlich on this and other points, but the idea that light cones somehow create an absolute basis for causility is simply not a generally accepted interpretation.Also, if you causality doesn't work, so why this is so in the context of light-cones. All other ideas of causality are approximations, estimates and wild guesses by comparison.
I agree, it's simply the reason some people accept it as true. Nothing more. Nothing less.Some people believe in free will because (or perhaps primarily because) it is a component of their religious or spiritual faith. Others, however, do not believe in free will because of their faith in some particular dogma, worldview, etc.
Glad to see you agreeing that your "choice" was caused, i.e. your "choice" was an effect of its cause.Causes are "properties" inherent in reality only in some philosophical theories, not intrinsic properties of reality (same with effect).
A simple example will suffice: I open the door to the place where I store my food, looking for something to eat. I scan what is available, and see that I have two types of snack food: a healthy granola bar, and unhealthy cookies. I ponder a bit about the fact that I'm trying to be healthy, and I should really go with the healthy snack, but in the end I decide to have the cookies.
At the instant my choice is made, what caused it? I could say evolution, because I crave fats, salts, and sweets thanks to conditions of life thousands of years ago when food was hard to come by and an adaptive strategy (namely, favoring food rich in what my body needs most, like fats and sodium) has become maladaptive. Or I could say it was whatever company manufactured the food. Or I could say that it was my nervous system which "informed me" that I was hungry. Or I could go with all of these and more. The problem, though, even without getting into emergent properties, self-governing systems, etc., is mainly two-fold:
1) Even if I look at everything which led up to the moment I made my choice, at the moment I did make it, a number of processes are at play such that I can't seperate cause from effect. I can't choose the cookies without seeing them, and thus my eyes are clearly a cause. But my eyes simply relay "information" which is interpreted in various parts of my brain. So clearly I require an ability to interpret visual stimuli conceptually, which means that a semantic, distributed network of activity is clearly a cause as well. Yet my choice, the decision not to go with the healthy choice, is part of that conceptual network of neural activity. I can't "choose" as a result of understanding, because part of my choice includes this understanding.
2) Even worse, if we were to look within the various neural networks involved in this choice, from those which interpeted visual stimuli to those which were involved in understanding what "cookies" represent, there is no way determine causal order. In the instant of choice, my brain is active. An instant before, it was as well. But not all the changes are part of my choice. Nor can I identify a single neuron which I could say was a cause vs. an effect. Even if consciousness and choice are not emergent properties, or governed in part by quantum indeterminancy realized by my choice, and even if I were able to identify what each and every neuron was "doing" in terms of how it contributed to some thought or bodily state, the change from the instant of my choice from the instant before it involves neurons whose state can be said to be either cause or effect depending on whether or not I decide that x groups were somehow more the "choice" part than y groups.
Glad to see you agreeing that your "choice" was caused, i.e. your "choice" was an effect of its cause.
No, we both know that this is your view, and that it is your view despite the fact that you have stated:And as we both know, it couldn't be other than what it was at that moment.
My familarity with philosophy and physics is not all that broad
If it could, then it would be an utterly random event: it had an equal possibility of not occurring as occurring.
The important point, however, is that thanks a number of developments in different fields, we can approach randomness in quite nuanced ways which are quite relevant here. For example, the Solovay-Strassen randomized algorithm uses randomness to determine probability, specifically the probability that a number is prime, with certainty (it is essential to understand that this algorithim doesn't tell you whether the integer is prime with certainty, but only with a probability approaching certainty). Not only, then, is randomness here used to determine probability, but this was also an early challenge to the so-called "strong" Church-Turing theory.
In classical computing, randomness is used, as above, as part of the logic of the algorithm. In quantum information/computation theory, randomness is used as part of the physical process which determines the result. In other words, the "randomness" is an essential part of the process which makes it possible for a quantum system to return a result/output. In each case, however, randomness is essential for (certain types of) information processing/computing.
That's what brains do: process information.
Yes, I've been down this road before. When I explain it to you, you simply call it inaccurate and insist that "logic" makes your view necessarily true, when I quote and offer to give you references you say you won't (or can't) read them (even if I can get them to you for free), and when I demonstrate from technical literature (regardless of the field) that what you say is inconsistent with the relevant studies by specialists, I get:So what is it that made you finally "choose" the food you did? I assume it wasn't a random event.
There are a lot of words in what you say, and if I thought you were serious and believed everything you've written I might continue, but I don't, so
Well, let's see. You said, "At the instant my choice is made, what caused it?" So here we have an event, your "choice," and this unknown cause you're concerned with; all of which denotes a cause:effect relationship. But now you seem to want to retract this admission, "Sorry to disappoint, but. . . ." What's a person to think, LOM?Sorry to disappoint, but apparently you missed the qualifiers. Even working within a reductionist, linear causal model (which neither reflects my view or the state of research in relevant fields), there are still many, many times when the only way you can reduce some phenomena to a series of causes or effects is completely abritrary and renders the whole exercise meaningless.
Good thing you said "so to speak" because I was about to take you literally. But just to be clear here, you addressed me first, even trying to provoke me into replying to you. But feel free to skip out, I won't try to follow.I'm not about to try to lead another horse to water (so to speak).
I feel like you have raised some very good points here, and I don't disagree. My simply-worded post was just to give some examples of what ideas might have been part of giving rise to the concept of democracy. You include here some examples of other concepts that could have been included. What I'm getting at, is that from a more deterministic point of view, there are concepts and ideas that can be added together to form entirely new ones. Kind of like in the way that flour, eggs and milk can be combined to make pancakes.I think linking idea of altruism/social cohesion and democracy has a lot of problems in it. First of all we don't know how to define altruism fully. There's the scientific explanation of altruism, the idea of inclusive fitness. But when we get into how altruism feels, the qualia of altruism that is unknown scientifically.
Also democracy needs free market economics to function and free market economics aren't really the most beneficial economic system for people. If we were to have created a set of laws and rules based on our evolutionary history, then socialism would have been a much better option and should have won the cold war. Almost all hunter gatherer tribes were socialist and cooperative in their makeup, but almost all civilizations that followed were the exact opposite.
Now you can say that democracy and capitalism are mutually exclusive, but I disagree. They are interdependant on each other. Democracy is also not only about altruism and social cohesion. It's a conceptual system with laws that do not really have an evolutionary mechanisms to ensure their survival. A lot of it we just made up. Freedom is something we cherish in democracies, but the Milgram experiment shows that most people actually are made to be followers.
One can also argue that God was just made up, that God does not exist. If that is true then a completely novel idea was just invented, as a metaphorical representation of our universe. Even if that were true, what is a metaphor? How can you explain how we convert objective observations into subjective interpretations?
Well, let's see. You said, "At the instant my choice is made, what caused it?" So here we have an event, your "choice," and this unknown cause you're concerned with; all of which denotes a cause:effect relationship.
What I think you're missing here is that no matter how an event arises, it doesn't do so out of thin air
. Personally, I'm content with acknowledging either absolute randomness or cause as this something, or even a combination of the two, but if you have a fourth possibility I'm ready to listen. Just name and explain this other mechanism.
Self-governing, self-fabrication, and nonlinear (cyclical) causality are part of cellular behavior. Essentially, whether we are talking about a cell or an organism, functional components contribute to the state of the system, but cannot be abstracted from the activity of the system without significantly decreasing any ability to understand the state of the system. So, for example, cellular metabolism and repair are functional processes governed by components of the system (the cell), yet the states of the components responsible for these functional processes also (and at the same time) result from them. Metabolites are the "cause" of the function metabolism (i.e., the metabolic process as conceptual abstraction or model of a number of processes which form a functional whole), but this same function, which is the result of basically the entire cell, also affects the entire cell. The function is a product of coordinated cellular activity which is also a result of that function.
Hard linear determinist: recursive argument referring back to linear causality
Systems holistic investigaton: argument for recursive causality
That should have been "show that it is so." Also, we can make spooky action at a distance disappear simply by reinterpreting QM to get rid of Copenhagen collapse. Everything else is transmitted by bosons, which travel at/slower than c.How is it so? From Rohrlich's contribution to the edited volume Probability in Physics (from Springer's edited series The Frontiers Collection, 2012): "Having redefined the axiom of nonlocality, we must now redefine also the axiom of causality. We cannot say, No action at a distance can be used to send signals, when action at distance is itself a signal. We can only say that the signal cannot be outside the forward light cone of the act of sending it. So we are back to relativistic causality" (p. 194). Rohrlich continues on a back-and-forth discussion about nonlocality, light cones, and causality, and concludes "This is jamming, within quantum mechanics! Hence the question of whether quantum mechanics is the unique theory reconciling causality and action at a distance remains open after all." (p. 199). Now, one can certainly disagree with Rohrlich on this and other points, but the idea that light cones somehow create an absolute basis for causility is simply not a generally accepted interpretation.
Now I take conceptualization to be the exclusive property of sentient beings, be it a human or a giraffe. So assuming your claim is correct, then no event can take place if there is no being to conceptualize it. "No, there was no tree that fell in the woods, much less one that made a sound."LegionOnomaMoi said:An "event" is nothing more than our conceptualization of "process"
Perhaps; but like almost everyone else on Earth I'm not schooled in the complexities of relativity and quantum mechanics, yet, I do know that neither are without controversy and criticism, so I am unwilling to accept any of your (you, having no verifiable credentials) claims for it ---being unable to judge their veracity. If they cannot be convincingly expressed or explained in layman's language then they'll have to remain a bust. Sorry if this disappoints, but that's the lay of the land.Your "logic" which by virtue of its almost unbelievably simplistic approach to reality, ignores both relativity and quantum mechanics.
So, I assume, you do have an "idea what kind of processes are involved in something like "choice," and can enunciate that mechanism in layman's terms. Or is this an impossibility?When you don't actually have any idea what kind of processes are involved in something like "choice", because you haven't studied the brain, complexity, neurobiology, etc., then it's easy to reduce everything to cause and effect because all you have to do is describe it that way. Meanwhile, those who want to understand how something like "choice" or "the laws of nature" actually work have to deal with how this reductionist and linear account just doesn't work when they use it to describe all the technical stuff you get to ignore my simply describing "cause" or "effect" and applying it when you don't know what's actually going on at all.
By "your definition" I assume you mean "absolutely random." And, I have to ask which fields of science or philosophy are you referring to in which my definition of "randomness" isn't consistent with the term as it is used formally, because I know that in quantum mechanics its been asserted that true random events do occur. In any case, true or not, if an event isn't random it must have a reason (cause) for its existence. But if you know of something other than causation then please enlighten me. What is this other possible non-random, non-causal mechanism?1) Your definition of "randomness" isn't consistent with the term as it is used formally.
That should have been "show that it is so."
Also, if you causality doesn't work, so why this is so in the context of light-cones. All other ideas of causality are approximations, estimates and wild guesses by comparison.
Also, we can make spooky action at a distance disappear simply by reinterpreting QM to get rid of Copenhagen collapse. Everything else is transmitted by bosons, which travel at/slower than c.
AFAIK, closed time-like curves don't exist. Therefore, causation should be a one-directional chain of cause-and-effect over the time-scales we care about. I'm asking you to phrase any objection to this in terms of light-cones, because at the moment, you (and the people you are citing) seem to be using the complexity of biological systems to hand-wave what precisely leads to what, and I don't see your logic as valid.1) What do you mean by "causality doesn't work?" In other words, it seems you are saying that I am denying causation exists at all, or at least that it fails in such a way that it is a meaningless concept.I don't believe either of these. However, I also don't believe (and here I think most cosmologists, philosophers, etc., would agree with me) that "causation" exists in the way even something like velocity does, but it does exist in the way that things like "future" or "past" or "event" do. And while I am uncertain whether or not causality is a meaningful term applied to any and all processes or "events", even if it is not so universal, it remains a meaingful term and useful model for just about everything. What I would absolutely disagree with is the idea that we can always reduce causation to a linear, discrete set of causes behind some effect.
So far so good.First, most of mathematics, we have a function/mapping from one set to another:
f: A -> B
Oh no, you can't do that! A is an immutable set, and an inherent part of f! (Because everything is immutable in math, and a function with a domain other than A is not, and cannot be, f.) In order for A to vary, then you must define an entire series of sets and functions - a single one doesn't suffice, because mutating objects do not exist in mathematics.The process, f, in this case stands for the entire metabolism goin on in an organism...The transition, f, which is being called metabolism, is a mapping taking some set of metabolites, A, into some set of products, B. What are the members of A? Really everything in the organism has to be included in A, and there has to be an implicit agreement that at least some of the members of A can enter the organism from its environment.
We run into the same issue here. Also, it is the implication above, "everything in the organism has to be included in A", that A is a set of molecules. (Those being things "in the organism") However, the reasoning doesn't appear to be coherent under that interpretation - certainly, it is not at all clear what f is actually describing.What are the members of B? Many, if not all, of the memebers of A since the transitions in the reduced system are all strung together in the many intricate patterns or networks that make up the organism's metabolism. It also must be true that some members of B leave the organism as products of metabolism...
Since we've derived the function entirely from the properties of parts that are material, (...I think. It's not clear :sarcastic) this is not true.In the context developed so far, the mapping, f, has a very special nature. It is a functional component of the system we are developing. A functional component has many interesting attributes. First of all, it exists independent of the material parts that make it possible.
Since Mikulecky just apparently reduced conciousness and cognition to maths, you've actually shot yourself in the foot - computers should be better at this than neurons are.[...argument which relies on this questionable premise...]
More importantly, all of consciousness and cognition are (to use Mikulecky's words) "functional components". In other words, they cannot be reduced to the various cellular activities within and between neurons.
I do not know what you are asking. Every region contains a configuration of energy, and each configuration's "future(s)" - including how that configuration expands into space - are defined by the laws of physics, so by induction, we have defined the "future(s)" for the entire universe.This is basically just "classical" causation with relativity thrown in. It provides no basis for grounding causality (taking it from metaphysics and philosophy into "regular physics"), any more than locality does. Any definition of causality entails particular consequences concerning the way objects and processes can interact or have an affect upon one another. Light-cones aren't "ideas" or definitions or models of causality, but instead follow necessarily from an already constructed model. That is, having defined causality as X (therefore framing the ways in which interactions can occur), relativity tells us that X can be involved in some activity happing in B, but that it cannot in C.
Sure there is - multiple-universe QM does it perfectly fine, for instance. (Because the quantum particles must move at less than c, and there is no propagation faster than light, because there is no wavefunction collapse.)Simply put, however one wishes to interpret the formalism and explain empirical observations, things are going on in some space-like region which are related to other actities in some other, disconnected place in this space-like region, and there is no way to explain this by using "classical" causation.
Not too many of us suggest we have no free will in our everyday life.
However it does get kind of mystical when we wonder about what is happening, after a bout of idle mind, upstream from the underlying causes of our next thought.
Any thoughts anybody?
:human:
Now I take conceptualization to be the exclusive property of sentient beings, be it a human or a giraffe. So assuming your claim is correct, then no event can take place if there is no being to conceptualize it. "No, there was no tree that fell in the woods, much less one that made a sound."
Please recall that I said, " Personally, I'm content with acknowledging either absolute randomness or cause as this something [the means by which an event occurs] , or even a combination of the two, but if you have a fourth possibility I'm ready to listen. Just name and explain this other mechanism."
Perhaps; but like almost everyone else on Earth I'm not schooled in the complexities of relativity and quantum mechanics, yet, I do know that neither are without controversy and criticism, so I am unwilling to accept any of your (you, having no verifiable credentials) claims for it ---being unable to judge their veracity.
So, I assume, you do have an "idea what kind of processes are involved in something like "choice," and can enunciate that mechanism in layman's terms. Or is this an impossibility?
By "your definition" I assume you mean "absolutely random." And, I have to ask which fields of science or philosophy are you referring to in which my definition of "randomness" isn't consistent with the term as it is used formally, because I know that in quantum mechanics its been asserted that true random events do occur.
In any case, true or not, if an event isn't random it must have a reason (cause) for its existence. But if you know of something other than causation then please enlighten me. What is this other possible non-random, non-causal mechanism?
AFAIK, closed time-like curves don't exist. Therefore, causation should be a one-directional chain of cause-and-effect over the time-scales we care about. I'm asking you to phrase any objection to this in terms of light-cones, because at the moment, you (and the people you are citing) seem to be using the complexity of biological systems to hand-wave what precisely leads to what, and I don't see your logic as valid.
While even those in biology (let along cognitive science, cosmology, physics, etc.) are realizing that "the reductionist approach worked extremely well for some five decades, but to maintain the winning mood in the twenty-first century, it is not clear that this approach will suffice. At the turn of the twentieth century, an ever-growing number of biological scientists mention limits to reductionism" (p. 8)., and in fact (emphasis added):
"systems biology is concerned with the relationship between molecules and cells; it treats cells as organized, or organizing, molecular systems having both molecular and cellular properties. It is concerned with how life or the functional properties thereof that are not yet in the molecules, emerge from the particular organization of and interactions between its molecular processes...It refers to function in ways that would not be permitted in physics. It addresses an essential minimum complexity exceeding that of any physical chemical system understood until now. It shies away from reduction of the system under study to a collection of elementary particles. Indeed, it seems to violate many of the philosophical foundations of physics, often in ways unprecedented even by modern physics." (p. 4)
And whence comes these quotes, these violations of clear "logic" which must be "based on the need to preserve one's security blanket"?
from an edited volume of several papers by specialists in various fields relating to biology which "represents the culmination of our studies" (our being the various contributers from different fields and different labs, ranging from the Department of Molecular Cell Physiology at Vrije Universiteit of Amsterdam to the Cognitive Science and Science Studies at the University of California). The volume in question is Boogerd, F.C., Bruggeman, F. J., Hofmeyr, J-H S., & Westerhoff, H. V. (editors). Systems Biology: Philosophical Foundations (Elsevier, 2007).
Oh no, you can't do that! A is an immutable set, and an inherent part of f! (Because everything is immutable in math, and a function with a domain other than A is not, and cannot be, f.) In order for A to vary, then you must define an entire series of sets and functions - a single one doesn't suffice, because mutating objects do not exist in mathematics.
We run into the same issue here. Also, it is the implication above, "everything in the organism has to be included in A", that A is a set of molecules. (Those being things "in the organism") However, the reasoning doesn't appear to be coherent under that interpretation - certainly, it is not at all clear what f is actually describing.
Since we've derived the function entirely from the properties of parts that are material, (...I think. It's not clear :sarcastic) this is not true.
Causality can be coherently defined mathematically as a function mapping universe-configurations to other universe-configurations, which may be what the author was going for. However, it is not what he said.
Since Mikulecky just apparently reduced conciousness and cognition to maths, you've actually shot yourself in the foot - computers should be better at this than neurons are.
You're going to need to be more specific, as extra dimensions, multiverse theories, and so forth are not only diverse, but also do exactly what I said: deal with space-like nonlocality by constructing some alternative model, not by "restoring" locality.Sure there is - multiple-universe QM does it perfectly fine, for instance. (Because the quantum particles must move at less than c, and there is no propagation faster than light, because there is no wavefunction collapse.)