Free will

[Pete in Panama]

I believe we live the same exact life over and over forever. And yet oddly I believe in free will

That's one of the neat things about beliefs in things we can't observe and confirm. You can say whatever you want and there's no logical way of talking w/ u about it. At the same time I can announce that I don't believe it and there's no way that you can discuss it w/ me.

Fortunately, free will is referent and we can work that out together. It would be good if there were some anti-freewill guy here that could explain his/her thoughts.

 

[Willamena]

We're too heavily influenced by our surroundings, biases and experiences for there to be free will. Someone just through a rock into another's window. This action is going to affect some other action and so on. Eventually, you'll be a beneficiary of that rock thrown through a cycle of events. Then you'll buy a burger on your way home. And someone will later eventually be the recipient of the accumulated events from your purchase. Our ability to choose gives us the illusion we were free to ever do anything else on our own. I mean this in a platonic sense, we're only a few feet higher than cock roaches. And we're insane, unlike them.

Threw, not through.

You're discussing determinism, not free will.

 

[Willamena]

Threw, not through.

You're discussing determinism, not free will.

(Actually, fate, not determinism.)

 

[Willamena]

I'll assume you'd to mean making the choice between good and evil.
Most discussions end up being about something else.

No, that's morality.

 

[Willamena]

I believe we live the same exact life over and over forever. And yet oddly I believe in free will

Can you explain?

 

[Willamena]

Interesting notion.

Are there other instances where you assume someone is expressing themselves for purpose of annoying you or others? Don't such assumptions strike you as a bit... odd?

Not odd. It's called The Internets.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Can you explain?

@King Phenomenon seems to believe in a form of this if I'm not mistaken: Eternal return - Wikipedia

 

[Willamena]

True, although I'm referring to actions which, theoretically, should be entirely within an individual's control. Free will ostensibly is predicated on the notion that humans are in control of their own actions and choices. They can't control other people's actions or the outside functions of the universe, but the assumption behind free will is that humans are in control of their own individual functions and faculties.

If you think that insomnia is within an individual's control, then know that there are individuals far less in control than you imagine.

Free will is self-determination, not self-control.

 

[Willamena]

I believe we live the same exact life over and over forever. And yet oddly I believe in free will

Well, that's a nightmare.

 

[Willamena]

To elaborate, I see such a thing as free will as certainly being possible, but something that one needs to usually strive for to achieve - that freedom and personal autonomy and knowing how to fully respect others' personal autonomy.

Free will is inalienable. We don't lack it in any sense. We possess it by virtue of being human.

There's a lot to unpack there, but suffice it to say that if you're being human, you're doing it right.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Free will is inalienable. We don't lack it in any sense. We possess it by virtue of being human.

There's a lot to unpack there, but suffice it to say that if you're being human, you're doing it right.

Sometimes, one's right to be human isn't merely handed to them, but they have to fight and conquer to get it - even if that fight is in more of a metaphorical sense, and even if one's worst enemy is themselves in this regard.

 

[1137]

Sometimes, one's right to be human isn't merely handed to them, but they have to fight and conquer to get it - even if that fight is in more of a metaphorical sense, and even if one's worst enemy is themselves in this regard.

I think I disagree. We always have the "human essence" even if we aren't allowed to manifest it. Same with free will, even if I'm in jail and cannot actually go on RF, I can still have the will to go on RF.

 

[Stevicus]

If you think that insomnia is within an individual's control, then know that there are individuals far less in control than you imagine.

Free will is self-determination, not self-control.

I think they come down to the same basic thing. Free will is based on the idea that everything begins with a choice, while somehow negating or ignoring various biological components which may influence one's thought processes and choices. If you don't have self-control, then you have no self-determination, and thus, no free will. Not in any real sense, anyway.

 

[Willamena]

Sometimes, one's right to be human isn't merely handed to them, but they have to fight and conquer to get it - even if that fight is in more of a metaphorical sense, and even if one's worst enemy is themselves in this regard.

I acknowledge a fight to be human, in the sense of regaining one's dignity, one's honour, or one's place through circumstance, that have been supposed to be misplaced. But free will runs deeper, to a meta level. Free will is inalienable of being human in the same sense that rights are inalienable. If you're a human, you have certain rights and are doing free will correctly. That's not disputable, in my view.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I acknowledge a fight to be human, in the sense of regaining one's dignity, one's honour, or one's place through circumstance, that have been supposed to be misplaced. But free will runs deeper, to a meta level. Free will is inalienable of being human in the same sense that rights are inalienable. If you're a human, you have rights and are doing free will correctly. That's not disputable, in my view.

So we disagree. My main argument would just be asking, if we have all that to begin with, what are people doing when they talk of "transcending"?

 

[Willamena]

I think they come down to the same basic thing. Free will is based on the idea that everything begins with a choice, while somehow negating or ignoring various biological components which may influence one's thought processes and choices. If you don't have self-control, then you have no self-determination, and thus, no free will. Not in any real sense, anyway.

If I may, free will begins with a choice, one more option than determinism has: this or that. If one professes control over the choice, then one professes control over free will. That I disagree with. Thought processes are not distinct from free will, they spawn free will. Thought processes give us "this or that," and that spawns a choice.

The only truly significant difference between Determinism as a theory and Free Will as a theory is whose choice it is. Is the world at large making that choice, or are you? It's about the assignment of responsibility. Nothing more.

if you "did it," then it's self-determination.

 

[Willamena]

So we disagree. My main argument would just be asking, if we have all that to begin with, what are people doing when they talk of "transcending"?

I'm not familiar with "transcending."

 

[Jimmy]

Can you explain?

When one certain man dies the earth starts back around 1980

 

[Jimmy]

Well, that's a nightmare.

We don’t remember previous lives

 

[vulcanlogician]

When someone says they don’t believe in free will, most of the time they’re just saying that to ruffle peoples feathers imo. They don’t actually believe it or they don’t know.

Nah.

Plenty of people have all kinds of motivations for arguing free will. I am very interested in the topic, and I tend toward denial of free will. But my motivation for having this position has never been to ruffle other people's feathers.

I'm sure that somewhere in history, a person or two has had the motivation to bother people with such an argument. But it's quite another thing to suggest that that's all the argument amounts to. It's obvious that some people who are prone to deny free will have an honest interest in the truth of their position.

The important question is "how." If we live in a universe without free will, how does that universe operate as to offer no room from free will? And if the opposite is true (free will exists) the question remains "how." How does free will exist? And how does it enter the causal chain of the material world in order to affect the material world?