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Free will

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
If such a proof exists, it is crucially important that we discover it. Why? If we freely choose our own actions, then that means we are morally responsible for all of our actions. That has important implications for how we ought to run our criminal justice system. If determinism is true, then agents have no real control over their actions. If that is the case, then we are incorrect to punish people for the deeds that they commit. After all, if determinism is true, they could not have done otherwise, given their environment and circumstances-- things that we all agree that a person does not choose. As useful as punishment may be as a deterrent, that does not seem to justify inflicting pain or suffering upon someone for things that are beyond their control.

On the other hand, if the will is free, a case could be made for punishing people for the actions they take. This is important because a plethora of people rot in jail cells (or are put to death) because of the actions they've taken. If one cares about justice at all, free will becomes a very important question.

If this question is nothing but a word game, then whether we should incarcerate or put people to death for their crimes is nothing but a word game.

I refuse to believe that.
What I'm saying is that it can not be proved logically. Intuitively yes but not logically.

OK, we can logically prove that we ourselves exist because we are in fact thinking (I think therefore I am). If someone goes from there and says that he alone exists and all else is his imagination, there is no logical way of proving w/ reasoned arguments that anyone else exists outside his imagination. I see free will in the same light. We can't logically prove it (now) but it feels right so we go w/ it.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
What I'm saying is that it can not be proved logically. Intuitively yes but not logically.

So my approach to this problem (and it needn't be your approach) is to separate that which is logically demonstrable from what is intuitively apparent. Basic intuitions can appear as premises in logical statements, but they do not serve as logical conclusions. So, in my view of things, nothing can be "proven" by intuition alone. Such basic intuitions are axiomatic-- NOT understood by a process of deduction.

"Let take a look at Descartes' cogito: "I think therefore I am." This is a logical statement. A very simple one. One premise leads to one (obvious) conclusion.

1. I think.
2. Therefore, I am.

Let's take a look at premise 1. Is premise 1 the conclusion of another logical argument? Turns out it isn't. Premise 1 is simply intuitively obvious. We all know it's true. But we know it's true because we all experience thinking. It's not because some such preceding argument-- that has premises x and/or y-- and the conclusion of that argument is: "Therefore, I think." The fact that we think is simply obvious to us. So obvious, that we don't need any other support for the conclusion other than "it's obvious that we think."

Now it is an interesting discussion to have if we were to deny premise 1. And maybe we are wrong to assume it as an axiom. But were perfectly justified in discussing other matters that assume premise 1 to be true.

If someone goes from there and says that he alone exists and all else is his imagination, there is no logical way of proving w/ reasoned arguments that anyone else exists outside his imagination. I see free will in the same light. We can't logically prove it (now) but it feels right so we go w/ it.

The fact that other people and material objects exists is another example of basic intuition serving as a premise in a logical argument. Famously, there is no argument (nor can there be) that disproves solipsism. But I'm fine rejecting solipsism on intuitive grounds. Is that the final nail in the coffin for solipsism? No. But it is reason enough for me to assume its untruth when discussing other matters (like free will). I find it easy, and don't see any dishonesty at all, in assuming solipsism is false for purposes of having other discussions about the nature of the world.

***

Personally, I agree with your notion that "We can't logically prove [free will] (now) but it feels right so we go w/ it."

I think that's a good policy to have when we are considering our own lives and the choices we are making in the present moment. The idea that we should curl up into a ball and do nothing (because we have no free will) is an inadequate idea. It is not a healthy or adequate solution to the problem that we do not ultimately choose our own actions. I think (at a personal level) we should assume that we ourselves have free will. JUST BECAUSE, it is a practically useful idea to have. What we OUGHT NOT do, is assume that free will is an actual thing in the universe... something that explains the actions of others. "They spontaneously chose to hurt my feelings." -- that might be false.

Someone might have hurt your feelings because they feel insecure, and it makes them feel more secure to belittle others. That may be a neurological process that takes place in the brain of insecure individuals. It isn't necessarily the product of metaphysical autonomy.

If determinism is true, then we our misguided when we make harsh moral judgments of others. And we are wrong to hate others for their actions. If determinism is true, we ought to pay attention to what CAUSES X behaviors (and changing that) rather than retaliating or punishing those who commit such acts. If we think that all choices are free, we miss the opportunity to correct the problem where it really exists. The CAUSE of undesirable behaviors ought to be our focus when improving the world, NOT punishing people when they commit such acts.

I agree that Jeffrey Dahmer did some pretty horrific things, and it was good that he was ultimately caught and separated from society. But wouldn't it have been best to catch him when he first started to abuse animals, and get him on a different trajectory, perhaps teach him art or anatomy, or instruct him how to produce horror films )if he needed to express his macabre or create grotesque experiences that centered around the destruction/consumption of flesh.

***


Anyway, I have more to say. But I've started rambling. And maybe you have some objection that would make my further analysis superfluous. What are your objections/opinions about what I've said so far?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
When someone says they don’t believe in free will, most of the time they’re just saying that to ruffle peoples feathers imo. They don’t actually believe it or they don’t know.

I look at it this way, if i go to my front door for a walk i can go 1 of 3 ways. If i turn left i will come to a t-junction where i can chose to go left, up the valley side to moreland up above, or right along the road which will bring me to the river.

Diagonally across the road will take me to the lavade, an ancient watering place used by pilgrims heading south.

If i turn right i have several choices, one way takes me to the river, a little further on another way takes me up to the forest, yet another takes me to the forest on the other side of the valley.

Any choice i make is made by free will...

Ain't free will great
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
So my approach to this problem (and it needn't be your approach) is to separate that which is logically demonstrable from what is intuitively apparent. Basic intuitions can appear as premises in logical statements, but they do not serve as logical conclusions. So, in my view of things, nothing can be "proven" by intuition alone. Such basic intuitions are axiomatic-- NOT understood by a process of deduction.

"Let take a look at Descartes' cogito: "I think therefore I am." This is a logical statement. A very simple one. One premise leads to one (obvious) conclusion.

1. I think.
2. Therefore, I am.

Let's take a look at premise 1. Is premise 1 the conclusion of another logical argument? Turns out it isn't. Premise 1 is simply intuitively obvious. We all know it's true. But we know it's true because we all experience thinking. It's not because some such preceding argument-- that has premises x and/or y-- and the conclusion of that argument is: "Therefore, I think." The fact that we think is simply obvious to us. So obvious, that we don't need any other support for the conclusion other than "it's obvious that we think."

Now it is an interesting discussion to have if we were to deny premise 1. And maybe we are wrong to assume it as an axiom. But were perfectly justified in discussing other matters that assume premise 1 to be true.



The fact that other people and material objects exists is another example of basic intuition serving as a premise in a logical argument. Famously, there is no argument (nor can there be) that disproves solipsism. But I'm fine rejecting solipsism on intuitive grounds. Is that the final nail in the coffin for solipsism? No. But it is reason enough for me to assume its untruth when discussing other matters (like free will). I find it easy, and don't see any dishonesty at all, in assuming solipsism is false for purposes of having other discussions about the nature of the world.

***

Personally, I agree with your notion that "We can't logically prove [free will] (now) but it feels right so we go w/ it."

I think that's a good policy to have when we are considering our own lives and the choices we are making in the present moment. The idea that we should curl up into a ball and do nothing (because we have no free will) is an inadequate idea. It is not a healthy or adequate solution to the problem that we do not ultimately choose our own actions. I think (at a personal level) we should assume that we ourselves have free will. JUST BECAUSE, it is a practically useful idea to have. What we OUGHT NOT do, is assume that free will is an actual thing in the universe... something that explains the actions of others. "They spontaneously chose to hurt my feelings." -- that might be false.

Someone might have hurt your feelings because they feel insecure, and it makes them feel more secure to belittle others. That may be a neurological process that takes place in the brain of insecure individuals. It isn't necessarily the product of metaphysical autonomy.

If determinism is true, then we our misguided when we make harsh moral judgments of others. And we are wrong to hate others for their actions. If determinism is true, we ought to pay attention to what CAUSES X behaviors (and changing that) rather than retaliating or punishing those who commit such acts. If we think that all choices are free, we miss the opportunity to correct the problem where it really exists. The CAUSE of undesirable behaviors ought to be our focus when improving the world, NOT punishing people when they commit such acts.

I agree that Jeffrey Dahmer did some pretty horrific things, and it was good that he was ultimately caught and separated from society. But wouldn't it have been best to catch him when he first started to abuse animals, and get him on a different trajectory, perhaps teach him art or anatomy, or instruct him how to produce horror films )if he needed to express his macabre or create grotesque experiences that centered around the destruction/consumption of flesh.

***


Anyway, I have more to say. But I've started rambling. And maybe you have some objection that would make my further analysis superfluous. What are your objections/opinions about what I've said so far?
We're very much in agreement on many points. One point that i may prefer more caution than what I saw here was your statement "...wouldn't it have been best to catch him when he first started to abuse animals, and get him on a different trajector..." My thinking is first that what-if's aren't very useful and second that he very well may have been physically incapable of learning a different trajectory because of brain structure.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
You don't think morality, choosing between right or wrong has anything to do with free will?
Free will is a will free from the constraints of concepts like god or fate. Yes, I also believe it to be free of morality.

It is base of morality, because it is you. This "you" is a singular identifier that gets to dictate what is free and what is not, what is moral and what is not, what is right and what is not.

Nothing constrains it.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
It depends on what you're referring to when you say "world at large making the choice." I think there are certain parameters of nature which might influence one's choices, particularly if one is fatigued, in pain, or under some other form of duress. There may be some degree of will, but not exactly "free" will (nor is it really determinism either).
So if pain is making the choice, it's not you.

It's only free will if you are making the choice, and you alone decide if it's you or pain making the choice.
 

vulcanlogician

Well-Known Member
We're very much in agreement on many points. One point that i may prefer more caution than what I saw here was your statement "...wouldn't it have been best to catch him when he first started to abuse animals, and get him on a different trajector..." My thinking is first that what-if's aren't very useful and second that he very well may have been physically incapable of learning a different trajectory because of brain structure.

What-ifs aren't 100% useful. But, more often than not, they are 90% useful. Even in those cases where what-ifs serve a purpose, there is still no escape.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
When someone says they don’t believe in free will, most of the time they’re just saying that to ruffle peoples feathers imo. They don’t actually believe it or they don’t know.
It's just an imaginative term coined by religious to make themselves sound intelligent and impressive or something.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Generally you have to define what you mean by free will because there are several different concepts meant by those words.
The way I used to define free will is; free will is connected to the ability to make choices without any emotional or psychological cost. Free will is free from cost.

If I have an apple and orange on a table, but I prefer the apple, there is a cost to choose the orange; feel a loss. That is not a free choice, even if I can will myself to eat the orange and pretend to be happy for others.

If I liked all types of fruit and enjoy what I eat, my choices now approach free. To have free will, one would need to become free from any bias that directs or deflects you. These have a price and are not free.

When Paul in the Bible said he became all things to all men, he overcame the costs of cultural clan bias. He learned to become free to choose all ways, based on who he was with; build friends in all places.

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
 
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