Free will

[Scarlett Wampus]

Do you feel that neurons misfiring also has an effect?

Not sure who this was directed towards, but...the occasional neuron misfiring is unlikely to have much effect at all since the neural networks in our brains are a complex interactive mesh and a small disturbance will have little impact on the overall system.

Why did you ask that evearael?

 

[evearael]

I ask because the brain is a very complex system with very imperfect means of storing and transferring data. It is vanity in religion to claim to be able to prove God. It is vanity in science to claim that we will fully understand every law in physics, for example.

 

[roli]

[

quote=Opethian]A lot of times I have now been in discussions about this concept in various threads. I do not believe in free will, since out of my studies of various courses like Biochemistry and Physics, and subsequent analysing of my own thought processes and actions, I was able to come to the insight that my actions are only determined by the structure of my body (genetic information, memories, trauma, etc...)

It is interesting that you do not believe in free will but the very thing you don't believe is the very thing that you operate in day by day and in which governs and regulates your very existence,That is life.otherwise you would be some type of android
You choose to love your family or not,obey the law or not,you choose to hate or not,you choose to turn to drugs and alcohol or not,you choose to rape or not , you choose to work or not.
Whatever it is you choose there will be an effect as a result of your choice to excercise free will.
When you choose to violate your own conscience you may escape momentarily the effects of those decisions but it is inevitable your choices will produce that which can be constructive or destructive to your existence.
Those are just the boundaries and restrictions we live in and are subject to,we can't avoid it or rationalize our way out of it.
If you were in jail your choices are limited but in essence you still have free will and make choices every day.by that you create the world you choose

Yes, you are demanded to make choices that willl agree with your physical makeup and limitations,and they are only for your own well being such as,you can't go scuba diving without the proper apparatus as your body will not survive inhaling water into your lungs.
There is a free will choice for you to make in this situation but if you want to continue living your options are basically limited almost making you seemingly feel you have no choice,but regardless you still have a free will to choose.
That decision is based on the quality of life you choose to experience within the limitations that our bodies are subject to.

In the same way when we think of God the first thing we think is that God leaves us no choices or free will as HE demands we submit our lives to Him ,obey and follow His laws,standards.guidelines
Let me just say ,it is not for His own good that He requires this from us,as much as it is for ours.
When a person surrenders their life over to God it is the furthest thing from a dominating dictatorship relationship,but a freedom and joy to experience the benfits of walking in what we were created for.

In conclusion we all have free will in every aspect of life,it is just that it it exists in a restricted and limited enviroment only for our own protection and well being.
It seems we come to except the restrictions the law and courts place on civilization,the government, governing agencies,our work places and even our own families etc but for some apparent reason when it comes to God ,His authority,standards and sovereign power over us and all that He requires of us we somehow think it justified that we refute ,argue, disagree with His rule over us.

It would seem to me it is a means to justify ourselves before God ,to fellow man and to ourselves and that our free will choices according to the sinful heart of man have been made in error and we are subject to God's wrath

 

[evearael]

Let me be explicit. Science can never prove or disprove free will. Neither can religion or philosophy, but at least that arguement is within the appropriate field.

 

[Opethian]

It is interesting that you do not believe in free will but the very thing you don't believe is the very thing that you operate in day by day and in which governs and regulates your very existence,That is life.

This doesn't make sense.

otherwise you would be some type of android

What would be the difference between a very sophisticated android (designed completely like a human is with some form of future very advanced nanotechnology) and a human? None.

You choose to love your family or not,obey the law or not,you choose to hate or not,you choose to turn to drugs and alcohol or not,you choose to rape or not , you choose to work or not.

I'm not saying that we don't make choices, I'm saying that our decisions can be predicted, that there is no point where our choice isn't just the result of input, processing and output.

Whatever it is you choose there will be an effect as a result of your choice to excercise free will.

There will be an effect, but there is no free will.

When you choose to violate your own conscience you may escape momentarily the effects of those decisions but it is inevitable your choices will produce that which can be constructive or destructive to your existence.

Obviously.

Those are just the boundaries and restrictions we live in and are subject to,we can't avoid it or rationalize our way out of it.

What does this have to do with free will?

If you were in jail your choices are limited but in essence you still have free will and make choices every day.by that you create the world you choose

Have you even read any of the points I have made?

Yes, you are demanded to make choices that willl agree with your physical makeup and limitations,and they are only for your own well being such as,you can't go scuba diving without the proper apparatus as your body will not survive inhaling water into your lungs.

You're completely missing my point. If you haven't read them yet, go back and read my previous posts.

There is a free will choice for you to make in this situation but if you want to continue living your options are basically limited almost making you seemingly feel you have no choice,but regardless you still have a free will to choose.

No I don't. Your arguments are still not making sense.

That decision is based on the quality of life you choose to experience within the limitations that our bodies are subject to.

But the decisions can be calculated, given that enough information is available. No free will.

In the same way when we think of God the first thing we think is that God leaves us no choices or free will as HE demands we submit our lives to Him ,obey and follow His laws,standards.guidelines
Let me just say ,it is not for His own good that He requires this from us,as much as it is for ours.
When a person surrenders their life over to God it is the furthest thing from a dominating dictatorship relationship,but a freedom and joy to experience the benfits of walking in what we were created for.

This has nothing to do with the topic.

In conclusion we all have free will in every aspect of life,it is just that it it exists in a restricted and limited enviroment only for our own protection and well being.
It seems we come to except the restrictions the law and courts place on civilization,the government, governing agencies,our work places and even our own families etc but for some apparent reason when it comes to God ,His authority,standards and sovereign power over us and all that He requires of us we somehow think it justified that we refute ,argue, disagree with His rule over us.

You're just making statements but not supporting them.

It would seem to me it is a means to justify ourselves before God ,to fellow man and to ourselves and that our free will choices according to the sinful heart of man have been made in error and we are subject to God's wrath

The fact that I've come to understand that there is no free will is one of my primary reasons for not believing god. I'm pretty sure your belief in god is one of your primary reasons for believing in free will.

 

[Booko]

I mean it more in a way of, everything I ever do, every choice I ever make, can be predicted.

I was under the impression that determinism had died out in philosophical circles a while ago.

 

[Booko]

I ask because the brain is a very complex system with very imperfect means of storing and transferring data. It is vanity in religion to claim to be able to prove God. It is vanity in science to claim that we will fully understand every law in physics, for example.

In fact, reading this thread did get me musing on whether someone had solved the three-body problem while I wasn't paying attention.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Let me be explicit. Science can never prove or disprove free will. Neither can religion or philosophy, but at least that arguement is within the appropriate field.

Evearael I yield. The brain is very complex and that explanation I gave of why we experience choice as real was very simplistic. Also it drew from psychoanalytical thought which is not a science anyway. The thing is, to me the whole free will debate matters little. Even if we did not have free will this would not change the fact we experience/perceive choice. To worry about whether it was real free choice, well from my pov thats like worrying whether grass is really green because colour could be described in terms of atoms, waves, etc. which are not coloured. Do you get what I mean? (I am agreeing with you, I think)

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

In fact, reading this thread did get me musing on whether someone had solved the three-body problem while I wasn't paying attention.

The three-body problem? I'm guessing that isn't something to do with how many can fit into a bed before sexy becomes awkward, right?

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

Hmm. What difference does it make? I figure you need to act as though you're responsible for yourself...besides that, if I have motives for what I do and generally behave in a predictable way, what of it? I highly doubt I'm entirely predictable.

Heheheh. Probably not that three-body problem.

 

[dolphinfan]

I think the argument against free will is an excuse to not be responsible for one's actions. I just killed a man but I'm not responsible because I had no choice. I ate Taco Bell for dinner because I couldn't choose McDonalds or Burger King.

It makes no sense. It's an excuse that people have come up with and are trying to defend for not acknowledging that there is a God they can relate to but chose not to.

 

[finalfrogo]

I will make a choice, but whether it be positive or negative, is not based on free will. It is based on input, processing, and output.

Can't the various possibilities of the output being the psychological equivalent to free will? Humans process the input as their character dictates. When considered individually, such processing is free from exterior influence. Does being able to accurately predict the output necessarily mean that the subject has no control over the output?

 

[finalfrogo]

I just killed a man but I'm not responsible because I had no choice.

Well, the point is that you killed man because you were responding to external conditions with your established psychological behavior. The question is, if all variables remained constant, if an identical situation presented itself, would the outcome be identical? Is it possible that you would not kill that man?

 

[finalfrogo]

Let me be explicit. Science can never prove or disprove free will. Neither can religion or philosophy, but at least that arguement is within the appropriate field.

Yeah, I also agree. Some things are just beyond Science's capabilities.

 

[finalfrogo]

Hmm. What difference does it make? I figure you need to act as though you're responsible for yourself...besides that, if I have motives for what I do and generally behave in a predictable way, what of it? I highly doubt I'm entirely predictable.

Heheheh. Probably not that three-body problem.

Yes, there can be various instances in which people spontaneously act completely out of their character.

 

[Booko]

The three-body problem? I'm guessing that isn't something to do with how many can fit into a bed before sexy becomes awkward, right?

Hm, no I hadn't quite thought of it that way. For some reason, I don't think Newton did either.

Intriguing thought, though!

(Musing about how an Acme Latex Love Doll might fit into this scenarios. I bet Sunstone has a few ideas on that. )

For a bit on the three body problem, check out the following. Please note that in the n-body problem, where n is greater than 2, the solution is chaotic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_body_problem

IOW, we don't know enough to predict even something that "simple" in mechanics. And we think there's even a possibility of predicting human behaviour? Yeah, and I'm going to win a googolplex of dollars next week in the lottery.

 

[Booko]

It makes no sense. It's an excuse that people have come up with and are trying to defend for not acknowledging that there is a God they can relate to but chose not to.

Maybe, but I'm not sure why anyone would bother. After all, if you posit there is no God, then there's not much of an obstruction to free will. There exists no one to even potentially "pull your strings."

OK, maybe your mom or your wife, but other than that...

 

[BucephalusBB]

I think the argument against free will is an excuse to not be responsible for one's actions. I just killed a man but I'm not responsible because I had no choice. I ate Taco Bell for dinner because I couldn't choose McDonalds or Burger King.

But you are responsible. after the killing you will be put to jail.
That plus the fact that you do have the personal feeling to have free will. If society would have given you the input that killing that man was a good thing, you would never have needed that excuse.

It makes no sense. It's an excuse that people have come up with and are trying to defend for not acknowledging that there is a God they can relate to but chose not to.

Not true, you can both support this idea and the concept of God, only as creator of 'robots'. Think of us as "the Sims©" :highfive:

Does being able to accurately predict the output necessarily mean that the subject has no control over the output?

The concept here doesn't say "accurately" but completelly predict.. If you can predict the output completelly, this has to mean all factors are either given or calculated out of other 'formula's'

The question is, if all variables remained constant, if an identical situation presented itself, would the outcome be identical? Is it possible that you would not kill that man?

No, you would still kill that man. but then again, the possibillity that you get the identical situation again is zero. you would have to live in exactly the same house at the same time for example. have had the same mother and bully around the corner. All factors that make your will..

Science can never prove or disprove free will. Neither can religion or philosophy

I disagree. If there is a 'pattern' than it should be possible to create the feeling of free will. Not in this time as we do not have the knowledge, but maybe over 40000 years or whatever.

Yes, there can be various instances in which people spontaneously act completely out of their character.

Only the character we can see..

 

[Opethian]

I think the argument against free will is an excuse to not be responsible for one's actions. I just killed a man but I'm not responsible because I had no choice. I ate Taco Bell for dinner because I couldn't choose McDonalds or Burger King.

That's not true. Like Bouncing Ball already said, you are responsible for your actions, and the fact that you are responsible, is also a factor you will take into consideration in the decision making process of your actions. What this doesn't change however is that every action is theoretically predictable. How long it takes to be practically predictable is dependant on how long we are able to survive on this earth and how science and technology progresses, but believe me, it is possible. My main point here is that you can't really judge people on a "good vs evil" basis. And that punishing, vengeance, and hate for no logical reasons except for getting even, are useless emotions. In Bouncing Balls scenario, under the same circumstances, with the same body (and thus also the same memories stored in the brain), you will always perform the same actions and take the same decisions.

It makes no sense. It's an excuse that people have come up with and are trying to defend for not acknowledging that there is a God they can relate to but chose not to.

Why does it make no sense? Do you have any arguments? I guess not.

Can't the various possibilities of the output being the psychological equivalent to free will? Humans process the input as their character dictates. When considered individually, such processing is free from exterior influence. Does being able to accurately predict the output necessarily mean that the subject has no control over the output?

It means that the output that comes from the input is only dependant on the physical structure of the processor, and thus it means that the subject does not truly has control over the output. It processes the input to the output, but can only do so in one way.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It means that the output that comes from the input is only dependant on the physical structure of the processor, and thus it means that the subject does not truly has control over the output. It processes the input to the output, but can only do so in one way.

This is a terrible argument. The fact is the biochemistry that is "you" is an emergent system that serves as processor, input, and unique feedback mechanism. "You" are as much a part of the equation as any other input.