Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
What do you mean? Because people around them sin, they are no longer innocent? Is that how the ultimate, eternal goodness judges us?
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free will?
- Thread starter izbo10
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Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
Well, if by "box" you mean reason and logic, then yes...I suppose so.
If they TRULY know, then yes it does.
A cop does not and cannot know for certain whether a particular person is going to speed at a particular time. Your analogies are invalid. The kind of "knowing" you are talking about is an entirely different thing than the kind of knowing God supposedly has.
No one on this planet "knows" what you're going to do the way God supposedly does.
God knew how your mind would change thousands of years before you were born. You are doing what he foreknew.
Well, I'll agree that you either get it or you don't, and you clearly don't. Let me try to make it more clear by simplifying as much as possible.
Would you agree that a good definition of "choice" is":
An action taken when more than one option is available.
If there is only one option to be taken, then there can hardly be a choice, wouldn't you agree?
Now, tomorrow morning, you will either eat Fruit Loops for breakfast or you will not eat Fruit Loops for breakfast. This is not theoretical. It is an absolutely true statement. Those are the only two things that can happen. You will or you will not. There is no third thing. And, rIght now, TODAY, God knows which action you will take. Let us say, for the sake of example, that God knows you WILL eat Fruit Loops for breakfast. He KNOWS 100% for SURE that is the action you will take, and He knows it now, several hours before you make your "choice".
Now..tomorrow gets here. The action either will or will not be taken. What do you do? Is there ANY way you can NOT eat Fruit Loops? If you do, then God is wrong, and God cannot be wrong. There is only one action you may take if God it truly knows what you will do, and we have already agreed that a situation in which there is only one action that may be taken is cannot be a "choice".
Before you type your response, please give me an answer to this simple question:
Is it possible for you to do something that God did not know you would do?
RemnanteK
Seeking More Truth
No.
Since he knows all the choices you can make he also knows the consequences or reaction to the choice.
But I don't believe he knows witch one of the choices you will make.
But like anyone that could know everything I'm sure he can make a really good guess.
Because he knows all the options, I don't see how that takes away free will.
It's like blaming a Genius for knowing your next move in Chess.
He knows all the moves you can make, but doesn't know what move you will make.
In the end if that isn't the kind of God you want to worship, that is your choice.
I'm fine with my God knowing everything, because that way when I leave my life in his hands I know they are in good hands.
It's like playing chess but instead of you playing you get you let a grand master play in your place.
I choose to freely let the Grand Master make the moves that are best for me, but I still have the free will to make my own choices.
Thus far in my life God hasn't let me down yet.
I trust he will make my path the best he can, and even when times are ruff I know I'm taken care of.
I freely and willingly choose to trust God because he said I can trust him.
All the great things in my like could be seen as 'luck' but I know they are not because I asked for them, and got them.
Doesn't mean God doesn't do good things for those how don't trust him, but he is more inclined if you believe.
We can debate my luck or Gods good grace, but either way I'm happy the way my life is and I'm not going to stop for any 'logic' a man has for the 'logic' God has.
I pray God blesses you as well, and I pray he leads you to a path to find him.
But in the end it's your choice to choose who you will serve, God or man.
No matter how long we go back and forth on this subject I am steadfast in my trust in God.
I do enjoy the conversation.
Since he knows all the choices you can make he also knows the consequences or reaction to the choice.
But I don't believe he knows witch one of the choices you will make.
But like anyone that could know everything I'm sure he can make a really good guess.
Because he knows all the options, I don't see how that takes away free will.
It's like blaming a Genius for knowing your next move in Chess.
He knows all the moves you can make, but doesn't know what move you will make.
In the end if that isn't the kind of God you want to worship, that is your choice.
I'm fine with my God knowing everything, because that way when I leave my life in his hands I know they are in good hands.
It's like playing chess but instead of you playing you get you let a grand master play in your place.
I choose to freely let the Grand Master make the moves that are best for me, but I still have the free will to make my own choices.
Thus far in my life God hasn't let me down yet.
I trust he will make my path the best he can, and even when times are ruff I know I'm taken care of.
I freely and willingly choose to trust God because he said I can trust him.
All the great things in my like could be seen as 'luck' but I know they are not because I asked for them, and got them.
Doesn't mean God doesn't do good things for those how don't trust him, but he is more inclined if you believe.
We can debate my luck or Gods good grace, but either way I'm happy the way my life is and I'm not going to stop for any 'logic' a man has for the 'logic' God has.
I pray God blesses you as well, and I pray he leads you to a path to find him.
But in the end it's your choice to choose who you will serve, God or man.
No matter how long we go back and forth on this subject I am steadfast in my trust in God.
I do enjoy the conversation.
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RemnanteK
Seeking More Truth
san miguel
Member
Quote BEAUDREAUX
Now, tomorrow morning, you will either eat Fruit Loops for breakfast or you will not eat Fruit Loops for breakfast.
what happens if you pour a half a bowl of fruit loops and half a bowl of something else (lucky charms)? In a way there are more options to than you think.
Now, tomorrow morning, you will either eat Fruit Loops for breakfast or you will not eat Fruit Loops for breakfast.
what happens if you pour a half a bowl of fruit loops and half a bowl of something else (lucky charms)? In a way there are more options to than you think.
The argument, though, proposes that he does know. So if you're not presenting a counter argument to that supposition, you're not going to dissuade people.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
It may be that God knows of it, understands it, but not as we do.
Suffering may, in fact, be a positive thing. I hate saying that, but the possibility is there. It is universal, and it makes life interesting. In our attempts to relieve it, we find purpose in living.
Suffering may, in fact, be a positive thing. I hate saying that, but the possibility is there. It is universal, and it makes life interesting. In our attempts to relieve it, we find purpose in living.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
I think there's a lot to Frankl's idea that without suffering and death human life cannot be complete. In 'Man's search for Meaning' he quotes Dostoevski "There is only one thing I dread: not to be worthy of my sufferings"
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
BucephalusBB
ABACABB
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Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
This short question and answer is the crux of why omniscience cancels out free will. If it is impossible for you to do anything other than what God already knows you will do (because He's omniscient) then it may FEEL like you are making a choice, but there is no choice to make. It is "impossible" for you to go off the script.
Saying that God is not omniscient or all powerful is one way to go here, but be aware that you are doing so. The moment you say "I don't believe he knows" anything, you say that God is not all-knowing or all powerful.
Omniscience is not an infinite series of really good guesses. The traditional Christian God is supposed to KNOW everything. Either He does or He does not. It sounds like you don't believe He does.
You are really straying from mainstream Christianity's view of God here, which is fine I suppose. Your description makes God little more knowledgeable than you or I. We also have a pretty good conception of what people could do in a certain situation (e.g.: fruit loops or no fruit loops) and we also don't know what they'll do.
Oh, I'm an atheist. I think that the concept of God creates SO many logical conundrums like this that it makes no sense to believe in one.
But you just said you do NOT believe your God knows everything.....
God's physical intervention into human affairs is another proposition that creates logical problems for the existence of God. If you believe that God reaches down and affects changes in the physical world, then he has a lot of explaining to do. Why, if he can do this, did he not prevent things like the Asian Tsunami of 2004? 250,000 people died painful, tragic deaths. Children were ripped from the arms of their parents. Wives from the arms of their husbands. The pain and suffering were epic. And God, who supposedly can do anything, stood by and did nothing to prevent it from happening. Yet according to you, he reaches down into your life to help you with situations that I assume are less critical. Does this make sense to you?
As do I.I do enjoy the conversation.
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RemnanteK
Seeking More Truth
Time for a rephrase, I believe God knows everything.
This is what he says and what I believe to be true.
I personally just don't get it all at this point.
The way I look at it from what the Bible says.
God is. A billion years ago God is, and a billion years from now God is.
Trying to get my mind around that is something I'm still studying about.
I'm in no way a mainstream Christian, I personally don't like or rely on religion.
The way I see it my 'religion' is trying to get to know Jesus.
I'd love to spend "FOREVER" learning from God about what "FOREVER" is like.
I can't say I blame you, there are a lot of problems and questions I have had over the years.
But so far over time they have slowly been reveled.
He does, but I don't, I'm still learning.
It's like me asking you to know everything about the Theory of Evolution.
I'll be patient with you if you will be with me.
I'm not a Theologian I'm just finding the truth as I go.
I believe God only 'interferes' with life on earth if we choose to let him, and if it is for the greater Good.
People like to point the finger at God for bad things, but if you blame God they you must realize there is also Satan. (not you personally I know you are atheist)
We can't forget that there is a Good and Bad in the so called story.
If you know the Bible you know the story, if you don't I can give you what I know of it.
But if indeed man is satisfied with blaming God for sin then Satan is doing what he has set out to do.
Looking forward to more discussion:yes:.
Yes everyone is guilty of sinning but sin was created because of what adam did if it were not for him there would be no sin
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting rule. So you believe the parent with the child dying of AIDS must somehow "let" God heal her child? That the 250,000 victims of the Asian Tsunami did not "let" God prevent it?
There are a couple of things I'd like to discuss here. First, if there is a Satan, how does he get away with doing any evil at all? God is infinitely more powerful and can therefore prevent every evil plan he would try to enact. It is impossible to have a battle when one side is all-powerful.
I do.
This is the second thing I'd like to discuss. If there is a Satan, and if all-powerful God for some unknown reason lets him operate in the world, what is his agenda? Does he cause Tsunamis? Does he try to affect people's choices?
Oh, I'll be here. I already spend WAY too much time on RF with no end in sight.
RemnanteK
Seeking More Truth
Yes, I believe if you ask for God's help he will help in his way.
But in the end, the wages of sin, is death.
I believe that God know Satan would sin, but made him anyways.
I believe that God know Adam and Eve would sin and created them too.
I believe God Loves us so much that in spite of our falling he still created us.
If God killed everything that didn't love of want to follow him he would not be a loving God.
God is like the master parent, just because we ask doesn't mean it is best for us in the long run.
I'm sure if you have kids, or plan to you will find this out.
My son might on day ask for a knife at the age of 3, but I'm not going to give it to him because I know something bad could happen if I do.
You said you know the Bible...
The whole point in the Bible was to see who you chose to follow/worship.
Because we have free will God gave even Adam and Eve the opportunity to sin.
At the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
We made out choice to not trust that God knew best and chose to sin against him.
Now Satan knows he is going to die, and how better hurt God than to turn his creation against him.
So even before God ends sin and Satan, Satan can rub it in Gods face by letting him see all that have chose to not follow God.
Satan's goal is to make sure that no one makes it to Heaven, like a child, if he can't have heaven than none of us can.
And unlike most Christians I don't think being good gets you to heaven.
If that were true I would think there would be more atheists there.
I believe that to get to heaven you have to have a relationship with Jesus.
He said Come as you are, not come to me when you are good.
Because of sin nothing on this earth is good, but God called Jesus good.
So in heaven when my name is called for judgment Jesus will take my place and tell his father if you accept me father, you have to accept him because he is my friend.
I believe that confusion and religion are some of the Devils best tools.
I just choose to follow Jesus and become a better friend.
I still make mistakes, but even those mistakes can't keep me out of heaven.
The only true sin is turning our backs on God and choosing the will of Satan.
Oh, I'll be here. I already spend WAY too much time on RF with no end in sight.
As do I, I come to tell people about what God is doing in my life, not to convert.
I have been everything from atheist to agnostic in my life.
Nobody like to hear you are wrong, but people don't mind hearing good stories from time to time.
Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
There seem to be a lot of qualifications on God's goodness. Don't ask/don't get. In "His own way." Why is this. I don't have such qualifications on my do gooding. Do you?
If you walked by a 2 year old girl drowning in a swimming pool, would you need someone to ask you to help her? And what does it mean to help someone like that in your "own way"? There is obviously only one good thing a person could do in that situation: save the girl from drowning. Why does God, who is supposedly pure love and goodness, refuse to help unless He's asked? And why does He help "in his own way"? What does that even mean?
So....He's not battling the devil? He just lets him do what he wants? Why?
The infant who dies of AIDS (because God stands by and does nothing) does not have a "long run" in which her suffering could be best for her.
Got 4.
If your son was drowning in a pool, would you require him to ask before you jumped in to save him? Would you save him from drowning or would you help him "in your own way"?
Well, I have to say, Satan does some pretty stupid things if that's his goal. If he's the one responsible for natural disasters, doesn't he see that people turn to God even more when they happen? Is that how he hopes to keep people out of heaven?
NOW we're talking!
That I can understand. But look at what this whole Satan-mission thing adds up to:- God loves us all and wants us to choose him and be saved
- God creates Satan
- Satan conducts an ongoing campaign to deceive people and keep them out of heaven.
- God could certainly stop Satan from doing this since he would much rather see people go to heaven.
- God does not stop Satan.
Me too, brother. From Catholic to Southern Baptist Fundamentalist to agnostic to deist to where I am now. Atheist.
RemnanteK
Seeking More Truth
Not 100% sure on this, but what I think is.
If God gave everyone everything they needed weather the believe in him or not, what would be the benefit of getting to know him at all?
The way I see it God wants a relationship with us. If God just gave his blessings out no matter what people would just stop talking with him.
I would help without fail.
I do think about these things, why, when, where, who God helps.
Suppose God did try and tell someone that there was a little girl drowning, but they ignored it.
Some kind of impression to get up and do something out of the ordinary.
Just because God did this doesn't mean we have to listen, free will.
Some people might be to self absorbed in there own life to listen to the small voices.
I know it is not God wish for people to die.
Lets say a 2 year old did die. I believe that child will be in heaven.
Like Jesus says. To those God give much he requires much, and to those he gives little he requires little.
This goes for how much capacity they have to learn about God and choose to follow him.
No I don't know at what age a child is required to have a relationship with God, but it is easier for them to trust that it is for us when we get older.
God will put many opportunities in front of us to try and get a relationship started, but it is our choice to take them.
I don't believe so, I think there is a great battle going on between the Devil and God.
Each time we are presented with a change to do right or wrong we have Good and Bad angels there waiting to see what we will do.
If we choose evil the Good angels back away because they see we are choosing not to listen to them.
When we choose Good we let God win, but only if we do good for his sake.
If we are doing Good deeds for selfish reasons then the Devil is still winning.
I believe it's a constant struggle of power over who will rule in our hearts.
Just because we can't see a battle doesn't mean it's not going on.
Yes it is sad when a baby dies, or a child, but like I said before I believe they will be in heaven.
God is just.
Got 4.
Amen to that! Kids are Great, my boy is 4 1/2 months old.
Greatest gift I have ever gotten.
I would save him at the cost of my own life without a second thought.
And "in his way" God did the same for us when he sent Jesus to die for us.
If he had not come up with a plan to save us we would all have no chance to get back into heaven.
If we show God we desire a relationship with him then when judgment comes Jesus will take our place.
God isn't trying to make us be good, God just wants us to have a relationship with him and show we want what is best for us.
For those that want nothing to do with God on earth, why would they want anything to do with God in Heaven.
It's like a rich man asking someone if they want a huge house all paid for, all they have to do is become his friend.
But instead they do things their way and the week passes and they wonder why they didn't get the house but someone else did.
In the end it came down to the other person got to know the rich man and the other didn't. Choice.
A story about this in the Bible.
Matthew 13:17-23
17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Some people might be brought to God by a disaster, but after a short time they forget about God and stop the relationship with him.
NOW we're talking!
Make sense to you?
- God loves us all and wants us to choose him and be saved
- God creates Satan
- Satan conducts an ongoing campaign to deceive people and keep them out of heaven.
- God could certainly stop Satan from doing this since he would much rather see people go to heaven.
- God does not stop Satan.
You are missing the part where if God just killed Satan it would only show that God makes things that can worship him.
God didn't do this, he gave us free will, he wants us to want to trust him.
God has a plan to get rid of Satan, but only after he has proven that in spite of sin, some would still rather worship God because the choose to not because they have to.
Well that is a long road for sure friend, you might know more than me.
But I can say this, no religion can give me what I have now.
I found it myself, no religion can give you a relationship with God.
Religion to me is a place where I can go and share the great things God has done for me.
And where I can hear about the great things God is doing for others.
I've tried for 29 years to fill my heart myself, it wasn't until recently that I found an easier way to do it.
I just hope I'm not adding the the confusion the world is full of.
I'm just telling you what I know for now, and I learn more every day.
You might not think so, but even our discussions help me, because you ask great questions and make me look up answers.
I do hope it isn't one sided, I hope at least I give you a different perspective than other have.
I use to say I was "Christian" in the true sense of the word because I would like to me like Christ.
But I get so much backlash from people I changes it.
Now I just hope I can show people what the word used to mean by my actions.
What is a label anyways, actions speak louder than words, unless words are all you have like here. LoL.
Well Goodnight or Morning.
Dont think God interferes at all. Perhaps free will simply means free from Gods interference. So were free to act as we please, but obviously within the dictates of the particular society we live on, so then it is our fellow Man, and ourselves, effectively deciding our will or reacting to it.