grandsecretary
Member
I have answered your question, honestly, comprehensively, and directly. King Athelstan - apology? I have a very good memory old lad. Please try to be honest.
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Freemasonry
- Thread starter grandsecretary
- Start date
I have answered your question, honestly, comprehensively, and directly. King Athelstan - apology? I have a very good memory old lad. Please try to be honest.
grandsecretary
Member
itwillend, please feel free to ask ANY question that you care to ask and I will answer it. Try not to judge people by your own standards and/or pre-conceived prejudices. Go for it, I challenge you and have nothing to fear. I will assist you to the very best of my ability.
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grandsecretary
Member
What is your point?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I kind of wondered the same thing, but I've been around here long enough to know that once you ask this question, your thread heads off to places you've never thought of.
Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Man I have just been messing with you. I didn't mean anything I said. I was just giving you a hard time, my little way of welcoming you to the forum.
On a different note, I do have a couple questions for you, but I'll start with this one first.
I use to live next door to the masonic temple in Alexandria Va. While living there I ran across an older gentleman who said quite a few things about the society. One of those things is that the highest level of the Masons are only concerned with world domination, but in such a way that is justifiable, and better left unexplained to the average citizen, because they would never understand why the means justifies the ends.
Any truth to that?
grandsecretary
Member
Well, in all humility, I must tell you that I am not a mind reader. Why didn't you ask this old gentleman what he meant?
All I can tell you is that this is what the original form of Free Masonry was, and is: Free Masonrie is where all men are called to the Priesthood, inspired by God, to instruct men. It is the very centre and source from which radiates the whole system of organized civil and ecclesiastical knowledge and practice, exerting a high standard of religion, justice and patriotism, and a code of moral teaching that will never cease to influence national character.
Perhaps this was his way of trying to explain his understanding of the Craft. This is my best shot. I believe that I have answered your question to the best of my ability, honestly and fully.
All I can tell you is that this is what the original form of Free Masonry was, and is: Free Masonrie is where all men are called to the Priesthood, inspired by God, to instruct men. It is the very centre and source from which radiates the whole system of organized civil and ecclesiastical knowledge and practice, exerting a high standard of religion, justice and patriotism, and a code of moral teaching that will never cease to influence national character.
Perhaps this was his way of trying to explain his understanding of the Craft. This is my best shot. I believe that I have answered your question to the best of my ability, honestly and fully.
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Just_me_Mike
Well-Known Member
Define priesthood, in your own words please.
Also do you deny that misunderstood bloodshed has resulted from the society? At the same time, do you acknowledge that money is the key to the civil and ecclesiastical practices to which you refer?
grandsecretary
Member
In the context of The Grand Lodge at York, a Priest is an initiate who has been anointed with divine authority. It takes a minimum of 10 years of hard work and learning, inspired by God, to qualify.
I do not understand your second question about bloodshed, asking for a denial. I will answer you if you would please explain it more clearly.
What has money got to do with anything? We are but the poor servants of God. We arrive on this earth penniless and we leave it penniless. Perhaps you will explain your point and I will do my best to answer this as well.
Please be specific, direct, plain speaking and to the point. I am not very good at word games.
I do not understand your second question about bloodshed, asking for a denial. I will answer you if you would please explain it more clearly.
What has money got to do with anything? We are but the poor servants of God. We arrive on this earth penniless and we leave it penniless. Perhaps you will explain your point and I will do my best to answer this as well.
Please be specific, direct, plain speaking and to the point. I am not very good at word games.
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darkendless
Guardian of Asgaard
Hehe Free Masonry. I've been recommended by 2 of my friends parents who are all above the 19th degree even though when we all sit down together all we do is argue like children 
They're pulling strings because i am under age (19), its as though they enjoy bickering
As ignorant as i am of this secret society i always find it amusing how conveniently everything in history has something to do with the free masons that my friends parents refuse to prove to me.
They're pulling strings because i am under age (19), its as though they enjoy bickering As ignorant as i am of this secret society i always find it amusing how conveniently everything in history has something to do with the free masons that my friends parents refuse to prove to me.
grandsecretary
Member
Hehe Free Masonry. I've been recommended by 2 of my friends parents who are all above the 19th degree even though when we all sit down together all we do is argue like children
As ignorant as i am of this secret society i always find it amusing how conveniently everything in history has something to do with the free masons that my friends parents refuse to prove to me.
When is Harry going to buy us a decent central defender to replace Ledley? That has nothing to do with the freemasons, that's Manchester City.
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darkendless
Guardian of Asgaard
Who knows. We're spoilt for choice up front and lacking in the back. Man U on the weekend will be interesting without Modric too :|
I know hardly anything about free masonry, when we talk its very very vague. I'm told by my grandfather (former free mason) that its the best thing i will ever do to meet people. Would you agree?
grandsecretary
Member
Yes I would. Take a look at our website and the website of the United Grand Lodge of England and see which one might suit you in the future. The fact that your grandfather was a Mason will hold you in very good stead.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
not really...
Why would I want to think of Aleister Crowley at all, especially as a Mason?
Free Masons are required to believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things, and the immortality of souls. I don't believe that Mr Crowley complied with these requirements.
His religious philosophy was Thelema, based on the dictum, "Do what thou Wilt", and his "Book of Law" was Qabalistic, so he cannot be considered a Free Mason by any stretch of the imagination.
Crowley was a mason...
Free masons dont particpate in Qabbalah now?
So, my answer is this. Whatever he got up to is none of our business.
Really? For many masons he is an important figure...
I take it you have no opinion on tikkun Olam?
What do you think about him, as a Gnostic?
What do you think about King Athelstan? Myth, Legend or Fact?
__________________
The King existed, supposedly, for that I was wrong...however the premise of your lodge in connection to him is myth and legend...I cant remember the exact detaisl I read the other day during my research, but it was the same message in mutiple places.... but so what, again its akin to me saying my religion goes back to atlantis....
Yet your group goes back to a pre davidic 2005....apparently...
I have read you are a master mason....yet you dont consider qabbalah to be a part of masonary?
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Juast a point of interest, I find it interestign that LDS is a form of free masonary (shrug)
grandsecretary
Member
not really...
Why would I want to think of Aleister Crowley at all, especially as a Mason?
Free Masons are required to believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things, and the immortality of souls. I don't believe that Mr Crowley complied with these requirements.
His religious philosophy was Thelema, based on the dictum, "Do what thou Wilt", and his "Book of Law" was Qabalistic, so he cannot be considered a Free Mason by any stretch of the imagination.
Crowley was a mason...
Free masons dont particpate in Qabbalah now?
So, my answer is this. Whatever he got up to is none of our business.
Really? For many masons he is an important figure...
I take it you have no opinion on tikkun Olam?
What do you think about him, as a Gnostic?
What do you think about King Athelstan? Myth, Legend or Fact?
__________________
The King existed, supposedly, for that I was wrong...however the premise of your lodge in connection to him is myth and legend...I cant remember the exact detaisl I read the other day during my research, but it was the same message in mutiple places.... but so what, again its akin to me saying my religion goes back to atlantis....
Yet your group goes back to a pre davidic 2005....apparently...
I have read you are a master mason....yet you dont consider qabbalah to be a part of masonary?
Look my friend, and I hope that we will be friends, I don't know what you are trying to prove, but please do not engage with me until you, at least, have a rudimentary knowledge of the subject of Freemasonry, particularly the Free Masonrie of Anglo-Saxon Britain.
1) Crowley was a Moderns mason (small "m") in some very dark and peculiar unofficial Qabbalistic nonsenses. Absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with pure and original Free Masonrie which was and is Exoteric and definitely not Esoteric. Even a very brief visit to our website would sort that one out for you. He is just about as important to genuine Free Masonrie as Donald Duck is to aluminium electro-arc welding.
2) King Athelstan: Stop listening to politically motivated biased idiots and start reading the raw history. There are literally hundreds of independent historical references on our website. Copies of Athelstan's Charter in the Anglo-Saxon tongue are in the King's Library at the British Museum, including the one penned by Richard Sankey for Elias Asmole for use at his initiation at Warrington in 1646. You can go along and see them at any time.
I know where my Masonic religion comes from thank you. My family has been deeply involved in it since the early 4th century.
3) I am not a Master Mason, I am a Fellow of the Craft of Free Masonrie, a High Priest and Grand Secretary of The Grand Lodge at York. We don't have Master Masons and never have. This is an invention by the profane and Godless Moderns heathen, Theophilus Desaguliers.
Where are you getting this utter nonsense from?
A Royal Charter, the only legal Masonic Charter in existence, enshrined in English Law and protected by Acts of Parliament. When you want more, just let me know.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Yeah, whatever. As if you, as a non-Mormon and a non-Mason even have a clue what you're talking about, aside from a few things you've read on either anti-LDS or anti-masonry websites.
grandsecretary
Member
The Mormon Church was organised upon Masonic lines and structures. It is based upon the Priesthood after the Order of Melchisadek. It is not Free Masonrie, per se.
I hope this helps and shows the benefit of asking questions rather than making rushed and ill-thought out statements.
I hope this helps and shows the benefit of asking questions rather than making rushed and ill-thought out statements.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
well you both wear aprons
mormons have masonic symbols
you both have a temple
you both learn more about the "religion" as you go on....
Joseph Smith: America's Hermetic Prophet compares Joseph Smith to Hermetcism (which is masonary for some)
further:
Joseph Smith and Kabbalah: The Occult Connection
Figure 10. The 1650 edition of a thirteenth century alchemical work by Albertus Magnus contains one of the earliest allegorical representations of the key symbols later subsumed by both Masonry and Mormonism: the compass and square. Christ as Adam Kadmon appears within a sphere of light and dark, marked with the ubiquitous sun and moon, suggesting the complexio oppositorum manifest in creation. Within his body are encircled the four primal elements: fire, air, water, and earth. In the four corners of the madala are placed symbols of the divine work: the compass, the square and ruler, the scale of justice, and (perhaps) the vessel of chrism--an anointing oil of mercy balanced against the scale of justice. At the top appear the ten sacred numbers (represented also by the ten Sefiroth of Kabbalah) by which creation was mediated. Albertus Magnus, Philosophia naturalis (Basel, 1650).
"While I would not diminish the inventive genius of Joseph Smith, careful reevaluation of historical data suggests there is both a poetic and an unsuspected factual substance to Bloom's thesis. Though yet little understood, from Joseph's adolescent years forward he had repeated, sometime intimate and arguably influential associations with distant legacies of Gnosticism conveyed by Kabbalah and Hermeticism--traditions intertwined in the Renaissance and nurtured through the reformative religious aspirations of three subsequent centuries. Though any sympathy Joseph held for old heresy was perhaps intrinsic to his nature rather than bred by association, the associations didexist. And they hold a rich context of meanings. Of course, the relative import of these interactions in Joseph Smith's history will remain problematic for historians; efforts to revision the Prophet in their light--or to reevaluate our methodology of understanding his history--may evoke a violently response from traditionalists. Nonetheless, these is substantial documentary evidence, material unexplored by Bloom or Mormon historians generally, supporting a much more direct Kabbalistic and Hermetic influences upon Smith and his doctrine of God than has previously been considered possible.
Through his associations with ceremonial magic as a young treasure seer, Smith contacted symbols and lore taken directly from Kabbalah. In his prophetic translation of sacred writ, his hermeneutic method was in nature Kabbalistic. With his initiation into Masonry, he entered a tradition born of the Hermetic-Kabbalistic tradition. These associations culminated in Nauvoo, the period of his most important doctrinal and ritual innovations. During these last years, he enjoyed friendship with a European Jew well-versed in the standard Kabbalistic works and possibly possessing in Nauvoo an extraordinary collection of Kabbalistic books and manuscripts. By 1844 Smith not only was cognizant of Kabbalah, but enlisted theosophic concepts taken directly from its principal text in his most important doctrinal sermon, the "King Follett Discourse."
Smith's concepts of God's plurality, his vision of God as anthropos, and his possession by the issue of sacred marriage, all might have been cross-fertilized by this intercourse with Kabbalistic theosophy--an occult relationship climaxing in Nauvoo. This is a complex thesis; its understanding requires exploration of an occult religious tradition spanning more that a millennium of Western history, an investigation that begins naturally with Kabbalah. "
By the late seventeenth century, several occult Hermetic brotherhoods, including Masonic and Rosicrucian societies, existed in England. The relationship these fraternities had to the first Grand Masonic Lodge organized at London in 1717 remains unclear. Although noting that "Masonry underwent gradual changes throughout a period of years stretching from well before 1717 to well after that date," modern authorities on Masonic history usually mark the beginnings of "speculative Masonry" to the decade following organization of this first Grand Lodge.66 Not long after this, around 1750, a specifically Rosicrucian order had been incorporated into French Masonry. Within the initiatory structure of the occult lodges, allegorical "mystery plays" were used to convey, through symbolic ritual, the grounding mythos of Masonry--a mythos which appears to have been fundamentally Hermetic-Kabbalistic.67 Though several renditions of Masonic history still emphasize the role of earlier "craft guilds" as a source of Freemasonry, relatively little evidence supports this claim. Even if one grants the existence of some linkage of eighteenth-century Masonry with earlier craft guilds, this does not diminish the molding force Hermeticism, alchemy and Rosicrucianism had on the fraternity's symbolic and philosophic development. (See Figure 10.) Simply put: Eighteenth-century Masonry was forcefully shaped by esoteric Hermetic-Kabbalistic traditions. While emphasizing this, I allow that several Masonic Lodges eventually evolved with less esoteric underpinnings and much simple fraternal intentions.
.....
Whatever one concludes about the varied hints of scattered early associations with Hermeticism, Joseph Smith had well-documented connections with one of the tradition's major legacies, Masonry. The prophet's associations with the Masonic tradition are thoroughly documented and discussed by Michael W. Homer in this issue of Dialogue. It is unlikely that Smith would have so fully involved himself and his church with the Masonic tradition if he had not sensed therein some intrinsic compatibility with his own religion-making vision. As Homer demonstrates, the prophet said that Masonry was "taken from priesthood," and his followers continued quoting that observation for fifty years after.104 It is possible that Joseph's interpretation of Masonry as a legacy of ancient priesthood was based in his own understanding of a history extending back hundreds of years, a history entwined with the Hermetic mythos and with Kabbalah, alchemy, and Rosicrucianism. The alliance of this occult legacy with Masonry was well understood by esoterically-inclined Masons; assertions of such links were bandied about by American anti-Masonic publications in the late 1820s.105 As noted, Joseph's own history several times touched Hermetic-Kabbalistic traditions. One could argue that he even interacted with them in a creative, visionary sense.
............
grandsecretary
Member
Are you talking at me? Ask them about this:
1717 - THE MYTH OF THE GOOSE AND GRIDIRON
1717 - THE MYTH OF THE GOOSE AND GRIDIRON
Despite overwhelming evidence proving it to be a total fallacy, it is still claimed, and often repeated by Moderns freemasons that organised Free Masonry began in 1717 after a meeting in the tiny back room of a London Ale-house under the chairmanship of "a nameless person". Remarkably, this spurious claim for Masonic regularity and recognition is solely based upon alleged proceedings of an unauthorised, profane meeting. If this myth were true it would have rendered the perpetrators clandestine, the profane meeting being illegally staged within the Sovereign and legally chartered territory of The Grand Lodge at York.
2) Ask them for a copy of the minutes of the alleged meeting at the Goose and Gridiron Ale-house on the 24th June 1717, or if not a simple list of any initiated freemasons who attended.
3) Ask them who chaired the meeting.
4) Ask them for a copy of their Charter.
5) Ask them to explain this:
1) Ask them to provide you with a single record of any one of the so-called "four old lodges" prior to the 24th June 1717.
2) Ask them for a copy of the minutes of the alleged meeting at the Goose and Gridiron Ale-house on the 24th June 1717, or if not a simple list of any initiated freemasons who attended.
3) Ask them who chaired the meeting.
4) Ask them for a copy of their Charter.
5) Ask them to explain this:
Now that you know what a myth and a legend really are, I can't wait for you to come back to let us know what they said and for the answers to the list of questions that I have given you.
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