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Freewill or Fate

Skwim

Veteran Member
Willamena said:
Volition is a person exercising choice. It's them choosing.
I don't know where you're getting your definition from, but I'd recheck it. None of the eight on-line dictionaries I checked suggested it was only a human act or that it excluded other animals.

Are you making an analogy? Then I agree.
I'm stating a fact of association. In order for function to have any meaning it has to be in the context of some thing.

Fair enough, but I don't suggest their actions are uncaused, I suggest their actions are owned. It's all about possession --their actions are their actions.
The tautology aside, I can go along with idea that ownership can be assigned to an action,

"By my choice" is a taking of possession, and the responsibility that goes with it.
I agree that the "my" signifies possession, but as for responsibility, which implies accountability, I'm not all that sure.

Nothing can be other than what it is. Choice is what it is. Freedom is what it is. Volition is what it is. Depends on what you think it is...
And this is where the paucity of our language sometimes lets us down. While I have used "choice" and "choosing" as if such things actually existed, as a determinist they only represent an act that has the illusion of freedom. There is no such thing as choice and choosing that is not directly controlled and determined by all the causes that led up to it. An entity can only do what antecedent events (causes) lead up to. So a choice considered free is merely the outcome of numerous causes that led up to its existence.

You've made it clear that you are looking at free will as uncaused, and this context your objection makes sense.
And this is how it's typically regarded, particularly when contrasted to things like fate.

I'm not the one who has a problem with demonstrating free will.
Then either you agree with me, or if you're talking about a will free of cause, good, because I'd like someone to demonstrate it in a world ruled by cause and effect.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I don't know where you're getting your definition from, but I'd recheck it. None of the eight on-line dictionaries I checked suggested it was only a human act or that it excluded other animals.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to exclude animals. (Actually, I didn't exclude them, but it's recognizably debatable.)

I'm stating a fact of association. In order for function to have any meaning it has to be in the context of some thing.
Okay, but "free will" isn't a function. It's not something we do. It's the fact of "us, doing things of our own volition." (Technically, the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice.)

An act of free will is an act that I've chosen to do.

The tautology aside, I can go along with idea that ownership can be assigned to an action,

I agree that the "my" signifies possession, but as for responsibility, which implies accountability, I'm not all that sure.
Good. If an action is "personal," it is possessed by someone. There's no "my action" without a "me," and there is no accountability without someone whose account is being assessed.

And this is where the paucity of our language sometimes lets us down. While I have used "choice" and "choosing" as if such things actually existed, as a determinist they only represent an act that has the illusion of freedom. There is no such thing as choice and choosing that is not directly controlled and determined by all the causes that led up to it. An entity can only do what antecedent events (causes) lead up to. So a choice considered free is merely the outcome of numerous causes that led up to its existence.

And this is how it's typically regarded, particularly when contrasted to things like fate.
Illusions exist. If they didn't they could have no effect; as they do have an effect, they have a cause. I get that many people indulge the idea of "free will" as the ghost in the machine, but philosophically and realistically, it is simply the taking of ownership of actions. It is that single thought that reaches out, grabs an act, and brings it in and takes possession of it, makes it "mine." It is "free and independent choice" in that it is "my" choice. If it was anyone else's choice, or fate's choice, or determined by outside forces, then there's no opportunity to take possession of it. We don't own it, so there would be a "cost" (in belief, in rationalization, in realization) to take possession of it.

That there is an "in" to bring things vs. "no in" to bring it is the image of dualism vs. monism. Possession, though, with either paradigm, can still take place.

Then either you agree with me, or if you're talking about a will free of cause, good, because I'd like someone to demonstrate it in a world ruled by cause and effect.
I was just being poetic. :)
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Willamena said:
An act of free will is an act that I've chosen to do.
As long as you understand that you couldn't have done otherwise.


Illusions exist. If they didn't they could have no effect; as they do have an effect, they have a cause. I get that many people indulge the idea of "free will" as the ghost in the machine, but philosophically and realistically, it is simply the taking of ownership of actions. It is that single thought that reaches out, grabs an act, and brings it in and takes possession of it, makes it "mine." It is "free and independent choice" in that it is "my" choice. If it was anyone else's choice, or fate's choice, or determined by outside forces, then there's no opportunity to take possession of it. We don't own it, so there would be a "cost" (in belief, in rationalization, in realization) to take possession of it.
I have no trouble with this, so I think we're good here.
 

Samurai

Member
I believe in free will. Because free will enables us to make choices. Without free will, human beings would be like animals. Animals don't have free will. They live by instinct. They can't choose how they want to live.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I believe in free will. Because free will enables us to make choices. Without free will, human beings would be like animals. Animals don't have free will. They live by instinct. They can't choose how they want to live.

Humans are animals.


:rolleyes:
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Which do you believe in and why?

I believe in the fate of limited free will.

Why?

Because we cannot chose to exist (of course a mentally mature specimen can off him or herself anytime they want, but thats besides the point), and we cannot extend beyond our mental and physical limits, yet, we have enough free will to kill each other and decimate the planet and other animals.

What's the difference between these two?

Nothing, they are both mentally (and sometimes physically) binding and can determine the outcome of any situation.

Are they really opposites?

They do not directly Oppose or contradict each other, though anyone can manipulate the logic behind them to make them seem in rational or moral conflict.
 
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Orias

Left Hand Path
Animals don't have free will. They live by instinct. They can't choose how they want to live.


To quote One of my favorite Arch Enemy songs, "Instinct brought us here".

We don't eat food because we thought of it on our :facepalm:
 

God and Bmx

New Member
Both. What I mean by this, is that we have the free will to do what we want, but God (or higher power, so to speak) knows what choices we will make and the fate of our actions. It is determined by us, but already known by the higher power.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Both. What I mean by this, is that we have the free will to do what we want, but God (or higher power, so to speak) knows what choices we will make and the fate of our actions. It is determined by us, but already known by the higher power.
Therefore what you do can't possibly be other than what god sees. God, knowing you will pick the banana over the grapefruit, precludes you from ever picking the grapefruit. In effect, the grapefruit never was an option. You were destined to pick the banana no matter what. No way could this scenario go any differently. Even before you were born you were destined to pick the banana. You determined nothing.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Therefore what you do can't possibly be other than what god sees. God, knowing you will pick the banana over the grapefruit, precludes you from ever picking the grapefruit. In effect, the grapefruit never was an option. You were destined to pick the banana no matter what. No way could this scenario go any differently. Even before you were born you were destined to pick the banana. You determined nothing.


This doesn't necessarily congrue, since what he said was that "God" knows the ultimate consequence of our actions, not necessarily precluding anything besides that we all die :shrug:
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
This doesn't necessarily congrue, since what he said was that "God" knows the ultimate consequence of our actions, not necessarily precluding anything besides that we all die :shrug:
Not following you. Care to rephrase?
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Which do you believe in and why?

What's the difference between these two? Are they really opposites?

It basically comes down to which direction you're looking. Free-will is our perspective on things to come, fate is our perspective on things that have already happened.

The reality is that people probably have much less choice than they think involving many things, and, conversely, there are also many more possible outcomes to many things than people imagine.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Not following you. Care to rephrase?

Ok, well you said...

God, knowing you will pick the banana over the grapefruit, precludes you from ever picking the grapefruit. In effect, the grapefruit never was an option.

Which doesn't align with God and BMX's statement of...

is that we have the free will to do what we want, but God (or higher power, so to speak) knows what choices we will make and the fate of our actions

Basically what this is getting at is, "God" doesn't intervene with the choices at hand, he just knows the consequences. And unless I am mistaken, your quote tries to make the example that "God" precludes choices, and I said that was untrue.

Unless of course, that is not what you were saying either.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Orias said:
Ok, well you said...

God, knowing you will pick the banana over the grapefruit, precludes you from ever picking the grapefruit. In effect, the grapefruit never was an option.
Which doesn't align with God and BMX's statement of...

is that we have the free will to do what we want, but God (or higher power, so to speak) knows what choices we will make and the fate of our actions
Correct, it doesn't because I disagree that we have free will.

Basically what this is getting at is, "God" doesn't intervene with the choices at hand, he just knows the consequences. And unless I am mistaken, your quote tries to make the example that "God" precludes choices, and I said that was untrue.
God's knowledge precludes one from doing other than what god knows. This philosophical/theological assertion is often known as the argument for theological fatalism. Theological fatalism is the thesis that infallible foreknowledge of a human act makes the act necessary and therefore not free. If there is a being who infallibly knows the entire future, then no act is free.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Correct, it doesn't because I disagree that we have free will.

God's knowledge precludes one from doing other than what god knows. This philosophical/theological assertion is often known as the argument for theological fatalism. Theological fatalism is the thesis that infallible foreknowledge of a human act makes the act necessary and therefore not free.

Thanks for clearing that up ;)


God's knowledge precludes one from doing other than what god knows.

If there is a being who infallibly knows the entire future, then no act is free.


Of course, but this is still subject to perception, ultimately making every conscious and unconscious decision an act of desireable free will, since we have the label "God", but everyone puts their own forthcoming perception behind what "God" is, which ultimately assumes the role that nothing can be precluded until it is already done. Following that is all that bs and mumbo jumbo we like to call morals, ethics, religion, etc. etc.

Free will is a limitless desire, and nothing more. Though there are a select few that are able to abstain from the general reality and manipulate it to their liking.

I'm sure you have heard the saying instead of searching for what is, most people create what they want. Or something along the lines of that, I'm not exactly sure, but I think you get the point ;)
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Orias said:
Of course, but this is still subject to perception, ultimately making every conscious and unconscious decision an act of desireable free will, since we have the label "God"
I have no idea what "ultimately making every conscious and unconscious decision an act of desireable free will, since we have the label 'God'" means.

everyone puts their own forthcoming perception behind what "God" is, which ultimately assumes the role that nothing can be precluded until it is already done. Following that is all that bs and mumbo jumbo we like to call morals, ethics, religion, etc. etc.
You lost me.

I'm sure you have heard the saying instead of searching for what is, most people create what they want. Or something along the lines of that, I'm not exactly sure, but I think you get the point
I've heard something like it, but I don't believe it.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
I have no idea what "ultimately making every conscious and unconscious decision an act of desireable free will, since we have the label 'God'" means.

I thought you might understand when I said...

Free will is a limitless desire, and nothing more

"God" is comprehended, nothing more. So is the world around you, but this comprehension is built off of what man has done to institute his Self preservation, by creating a world of symbols and imagery.

You lost me.

Hum...

You can't say something happened for a reason until it happened.

People build off of this, and because our creative psyche developed language we evolved into what we are. An act of will is completed through others, since when I ask someone to close a door, and they do it, they have completed my will. This can be applied in other circumstances as well.

Which means anyone can put any meaning behind "God", though most apply it to common "Abrahamic God".

I suggest this site for a more clear understanding of the etyomology of the word "God" or deity.



I've heard something like it, but I don't believe it.


Thats exactly what the quote suggests.
 
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