French Burka Ban

[Penumbra]

French police arrested two veiled women this morning just hours after the country's new ban on wearing the burka in public came into force.

The women were arrested along with several other people protesting in front of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris against the new law.

Jourrnalists at the scene said the arrests came after police moved in to break up the protest which had not been authorised.

On Saturday police arrested 59 people, including 19 veiled women, who turned up for a banned protest in Paris against the draconian new law, the first of its kind to be enforced in Europe.

French burka ban: police arrest two veiled women - Telegraph

I think this is too extreme. I would not support a government's right to tell people they can't wear something that they voluntarily dress in.

Thoughts?

 

[Madhuri]

Is the burka the one that covers the face or just the hair?
I can see why a law could be enforced to ban covering one's face for safety precautions. But if they are banning the veil that covers the hair then that is just ludicrous.

 

[Badran]

I think this is too extreme. I would not support a government's right to tell people they can't wear something that they voluntarily dress in.

Thoughts?

I agree, especially when there is no rational behind it.

 

[Badran]

I'm not saying that the Burqa ban is morally right, just that the logic behind it isn't too extreme

How so?

 

[Madhuri]

Penumbra, this is also being discussed here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/european-politics/114019-france-arrests-two-niqabis.html

 

[Penumbra]

Is the burka the one that covers the face or just the hair?
I can see why a law could be enforced to ban covering one's face for safety precautions. But if they are banning the veil that covers the hair then that is just ludicrous.

It's a ban on the kind that covers the whole face/body.

But they don't ban, say, wearing a sunglasses, a hat, and a scarf.

 

[Badran]

I can see why a law could be enforced to ban covering one's face for safety precautions.

Unfortunately, as far as i know thats not the reason they banned it. If it was, it would have been less insulting because at least then they're just stupid.

 

[Penumbra]

I can't ever imagine someone ever wearing something that might make others uneasy. It never happens. /sarcasm

I'm not saying that the Burqa ban is morally right, just that the logic behind it isn't too extreme.

[Edit: I originally had a picture of a KKK and a Nazi Uniform posted, removed because I thought they were too sensationalistic, creepy.]

I assert that it's more important to protect freedom of expression than freedom from the expression of others.

 

[Madhuri]

Pretty certain the Burka just covers the face. However, if we went by that logic, ski masks, hats, sunglasses, facial hair, scarfs, and anything else that could conceal or distort facial features should also be outlawed.

I think there could be specifications made.
For instance, I would not want someone coming into my shop (or bank) with their face fully covered (in whatever manner).

 

[Madhuri]

Unfortunately, as far as i know thats not the reason they banned it. If it was, it would have been less insulting because at least then they're just stupid.

I haven't been following this piece of news- if it's just an act of discrimination then I cannot support it. Reasons have to be justifiable.

 

[xkatz]

French burka ban: police arrest two veiled women - Telegraph

I think this is too extreme. I would not support a government's right to tell people they can't wear something that they voluntarily dress in.

Thoughts?

This ban on displaying religious attire in France is a disgrace. It violates the freedom of expression and of religion. Unfortunately, it seems many people in France (and perhaps throughout much of Europe) are in favor of these laws because of increasing prevalence of Islamophobia due to the large influx of Muslim immigrants. Also, I find it silly that the French gov't justifies this ban b/c burqas are "a symbol of male oppression" I would say that most of these women CHOOSE to wear their burqas and they should have the choice to do so and not have a bunch of Gauls tell them what to do.

[/rant]

 

[Badran]

Because certain people find certain forms of dress intimidating, morally unacceptable, or in some other way socially polarizing. The idea of trying to control what people can and cannot wear in public is nothing new, therefore logically speaking the idea isn't all that extreme. Once again, I'm not saying I'm defending it.

I see what you're saying, its not new i agree, but still pretty extreme especially coming from a country that supposedly protects people's rights and freedoms.

 

[Penumbra]

I can understand banning certain attire in certain limited situations. As Madhuri pointed out, it's fair to make people show most of their face if they enter a bank or some shops.

I also remember a public debate regarding a woman who didn't want to show her face from under her burka for a driver's license photo, which is ridiculous. The whole point is that it's a photo ID, so it needs to identify the face. And officials who, say, pull someone over should be able to request the person to temporarily remove any covering for the purposes of safe identification.

Other than for specific safety reasons, I don't support governing the attire of people.

 

[Madhuri]

I can understand banning certain attire in certain limited situations. As Madhuri pointed out, it's fair to make people show most of their face if they enter a bank or some shops.

I also remember a public debate regarding a woman who didn't want to show her face from under her burka for a driver's license photo, which is ridiculous. The whole point is that it's a photo ID, so it needs to identify the face. And officials who, say, pull someone over should be able to request the person to temporarily remove any covering for the purposes of safe identification.

Other than for specific safety reasons, I don't support governing the attire of people.

I agree, that's pretty much what I was getting at but in much better wording

 

[Badran]

I haven't been following this piece of news- if it's just an act of discrimination then I cannot support it. Reasons have to be justifiable.

Thats how i see it, an act of discrimination. Simply because even the reasons that might have held any grounds, such as the one you mentioned, are not the reasons they're doing this. Even such reasons that might have held any ground, have to be actually shown to be true. That is, shown that there is actually any kind of security threat.

However like you said in another post, there are easy ways to handle whichever security issues stemming from this such as making it not allowed to enter certain places with your face covered, or enforcing that you have to reveal your face in such instances, you don't need an outright ban to solve that.

 

[*Anne*]

I feel the same as Madhuri and Penumbra.

However like you said in another post, there are easy ways to handle whichever security issues stemming from this such as making it not allowed to enter certain places with your face covered, or enforcing that you have to reveal your face in such instances, you don't need an outright ban to solve that.

I wonder how that would go over...asking women to unveil before entering a bank or a 7-11.

 

[Badran]

I wonder how that would go over...asking women to unveil before entering a bank or a 7-11.

Well i know for sure that some women are going to have a problem with that, but it won't be as big problem as what we have here. It will also be easier for the government to explain itself and try to justify this need, and perhaps some of the women would understand. Eventually i think most will accept it either convinced or not, and some will remain uneasy.

But in this case, the government actually have the right to do this because there are times when facial identification is needed, so if some of them still feel bad about it, thats their problem and the government can not be blamed for that.

 

[PhAA]

I can't ever imagine someone ever wearing something that might make others uneasy. It never happens. /sarcasm

I'm not saying that the Burqa ban is morally right, just that the logic behind it isn't too extreme.

[Edit: I originally had a picture of a KKK and a Nazi Uniform posted, removed because I thought they were too sensationalistic, creepy.]

It think they are just misunderstood. Clearly labeling them terrorists. Are the French that scared and insecure? Does this mean that it's not safe in France and they can't control terrorism? They are adding stigma to the people. This will make things worse.

 

[RitalinO.D.]

Something else to think about. Not all Muslim women wear burqas by choice. You can never know when you see a women wearing one, if she chose to wear it, or was forced to wear it by her husband, or some other extremist relative. Not to mention, would they wear these items if they weren't ingrained into their religion/culture? I've met quite a few muslim women in places such as Turkey and Qatar that are westernized and said they hated to wear it, and wouldn't have if they hadn't been forced to.

In these types of situations, I see this law as a benefit to those women, who now cannot be forced to wear this in public without being arrested/fined/whatever.

Hell, Iran has a force of modesty police who enforce their dress codes. If this piece of clothing was accepted universally, the need for modesty police wouldn't exist.

Although on the other hand, there are probably just as many, if not more Muslim women that wear it out of respect and honor for their beliefs.

Personally I am kind of on the fence on this one, cause it has good and bad effects.

 

[PhAA]

Something else to think about. Not all Muslim women wear burqas by choice. You can never know when you see a women wearing one, if she chose to wear it, or was forced to wear it by her husband, or some other extremist relative. Not to mention, would they wear these items if they weren't ingrained into their religion/culture? I've met quite a few muslim women in places such as Turkey and Qatar that are westernized and said they hated to wear it, and wouldn't have if they hadn't been forced to.

In these types of situations, I see this law as a benefit to those women, who now cannot be forced to wear this in public without being arrested/fined/whatever.

Hell, Iran has a force of modesty police who enforce their dress codes. If this piece of clothing was accepted universally, the need for modesty police wouldn't exist.

Although on the other hand, there are probably just as many, if not more Muslim women that wear it out of respect and honor for their beliefs.

Personally I am kind of on the fence on this one, cause it has good and bad effects.

Yeah, there should be a free choice with this one, and everything else. What I see as wrong here is one reason for this bill is the stigma they put into people. State and religion should not mix right?