Frenchman wins case seeking to be "de-baptized" Roman Catholic

[Pegg]

It's a baptismal record. The baptism occurred. What it accomplished has yet to be determined, but whether or not the person leaves the church, the baptism did occur.

A person should be allowed to clarify however, that they are no longer Roman Catholic.

To me, there's a difference. One is an event, the other is a belief - two different things.

i have to agree on that

to physically remove the name from the list is like destroying an historical record. I think its sufficient if the church marks the name as someone who has resigned from the church....in my mind that is a better outcome then pretending the baptism never occurred in the first place.

 

[Katzpur]

Mormon family members can pray my soul into their ledgers and into heaven - at least that's their belief.

Kathryn, I'm surprised to hear you say that. First of all, nobody needs to pray your soul into Heaven. Secondly, nobody can force anyone to become a Mormon without his permission. And to the next person who says, "Oh, yeah... What about proxy baptism?" my answer would be, "A baptism is not the same thing as a conversion."

 

[Katzpur]

What do you think of this man's case? Does/should the Catholic Church have the right to say, "No. We're not taking your name off the records," and refuse to do so because the secular state has no authority over what the church decrees?

It's a baptismal record. The baptism occurred. What it accomplished has yet to be determined, but whether or not the person leaves the church, the baptism did occur.

A person should be allowed to clarify however, that they are no longer Roman Catholic.

To me, there's a difference. One is an event, the other is a belief - two different things.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Kathryn. You can't say the baptism never happened. It did. On the other hand, people should be able to have their names removed from the Church's records. Doesn't the Catholic Church ever excommunicate a person? If so, what happens to the record of that person having once been a Catholic?

Also, as I just said in my last post, a baptism is not magic. Anybody who thinks that God is going to consider this man to be Catholic if he doesn't consider himself to be Catholic has a pretty warped idea of how God works.

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, I'm surprised to hear you say that.

I don't know exactly how that works, but honestly, my point is that Mormons have some sort of belief in which they can "save" people after they have died - through some sort of baptism for the dead.

My thoughts are "So what - I'll be dead. I frankly don't care if Mormons baptise me later or whatever and believe that's going to help get me into heaven." For all I know, I might end up appreciating their attention to detail later!

I'm not trying to argue doctrine - I'm just using that as an example of why I don't think a record of a baptism into the RCC should mean so much to someone who is not Roman Catholic -whether the Church says they are or not.

Baptism for the dead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LDS Church doctrine



Baptismal font in the Salt Lake Temple, circa 1912, where baptisms for the dead are performed by proxy. The font rests on the backs of twelve oxen representing the Twelve Tribes of Israel
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that baptism is a prerequisite for entry into the kingdom of God as stated by Jesus in John 3:5: "Except that a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (KJV).
The LDS Church teaches that performing baptisms for the dead allows this saving ordinance to be offered on behalf of those who have died without accepting or knowing Jesus Christ or his teachings during their mortal lives. It is taught that this is the method by which all who have lived upon the earth will have the opportunity to receive baptism and to thereby enter the Kingdom of God.
The LDS Church teaches that those in the afterlife who have been baptized by proxy are free to accept or reject the ordinance done on their behalf. Baptism on behalf of a deceased individual is not binding if that individual chooses to reject it in the afterlife.[29][30]
Any member of the LDS Church, male or female, who is at least 12 years old and holds a current temple recommend may act as a proxy in this ordinance. Men must also hold the Aaronic Priesthood prior to entering the temple. A man must act as proxy for a deceased man, and a woman must act as proxy for a deceased woman. The concept of a spiritual proxy is compared by some in the LDS Church to the belief that Jesus acted as proxy for every human when he atoned for the sins of the world.[31]

Frankly I hope we're not sidetracking the thread to discuss the Mormon doctrine of baptism of the dead in any great detail. It's really not my main point and I apologize if I got the details wrong.

 

[blackout]

Let's not forget the children of people who left the RC,
(who went through the 'baptismal' ritual as babies)
who grow up essentially knowing not a thing about any of it,
having no experience of roman catholicism whatsoever,
never stepping in a RC church,
save maybe an occasional funeral or wedding,
and raised completely counter to the teachings and doctrines of said church.

How ridiculous is it to call or count them (as) catholic.

 

[Kathryn]

i think you've hit the nail on the head, kathryn. You can't say the baptism never happened. It did. On the other hand, people should be able to have their names removed from the church's records. Doesn't the catholic church ever excommunicate a person? If so, what happens to the record of that person having once been a catholic?

Also, as i just said in my last post, a baptism is not magic. Anybody who thinks that god is going to consider this man to be catholic if he doesn't consider himself to be catholic has a pretty warped idea of how god works.

true dat.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't know exactly how that works, but honestly, my point is that Mormons have some sort of belief in which they can "save" people after they have died - through some sort of baptism for the dead.

My thoughts are "So what - I'll be dead. I frankly don't care if Mormons baptise me later or whatever and believe that's going to help get me into heaven." For all I know, I might end up appreciating their attention to detail later!

Don't worry about it. I know you better than to be offended over such a minor thing.

Baptism for the dead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LDS Church doctrine

The LDS Church teaches that those in the afterlife who have been baptized by proxy are free to accept or reject the ordinance done on their behalf. Baptism on behalf of a deceased individual is not binding if that individual chooses to reject it in the afterlife.

This is the part of the doctrine that is important for people to understand. Now, back to the dude in France...