From 'born again' to agnostic

[Misty]

I was unfortunate enough to have been brought up in a fundamentalist Christian home (pentecostal). The pressure to get 'saved' was great even from a young age. I was told at six years old that if Jesus came I would be left behind, which of course is abusive. I had a sadistic grandmother who took pleasure in telling me from the age of two about the tortures of hell for naughty little girls like me! I held out until I was eleven before giving into the pressure and 'giving my heart to Jesus'! I was even devout for a while and embarrassingly trotted out the cliches so beloved of fundamentalist Christians. However, before long the doubts assailed themselves overwhelmingly, and thankfully by the time I married at 19 my faith slipped away, which was a relief. I am firmly of the opinion that the fundamentalist Christian dogma 'only the saved go to heaven the rest to hell', is a silly nonsense and can be very abusive too.

 

[Zadok]

I personally prefer someone's opinion that has arrived at such an opinion having studied, considered and carefully and intelligently tried different options rather than the latest default being before them.

Zadok

 

[Revoltingest]

I personally prefer someone's opinion that has arrived at such an opinion having studied, considered and carefully and intelligently tried different options rather than the latest default being before them.Zadok

I prefer Misty's approach, ie, to think for oneself & arrive at doubt when evidence leads there.
After all, studying what other people say is just their opinions about things unknowable. Their
expertise is no greater.

 

[fallingblood]

I have a similar story. I was raised in a fundamentalist home as well. I accepted "Jesus into my heart" at the age of three or four. For me though, it was through study of different religions, and my beliefs that led me to become agnostic. From what I've seen, at least in this state, many of the people raised in an fundamentalist home tend to turn to agnosticism. For example, all of my four brothers ended up leaving the fundamentalist idea and became agnostics.

 

[Eliot Wild]

I was unfortunate enough to have been brought up in a fundamentalist Christian home (pentecostal). The pressure to get 'saved' was great even from a young age. I was told at six years old that if Jesus came I would be left behind, which of course is abusive. I had a sadistic grandmother who took pleasure in telling me from the age of two about the tortures of hell for naughty little girls like me! I held out until I was eleven before giving into the pressure and 'giving my heart to Jesus'! I was even devout for a while and embarrassingly trotted out the cliches so beloved of fundamentalist Christians. However, before long the doubts assailed themselves overwhelmingly, and thankfully by the time I married at 19 my faith slipped away, which was a relief. I am firmly of the opinion that the fundamentalist Christian dogma 'only the saved go to heaven the rest to hell', is a silly nonsense and can be very abusive too.

This sounds a lot like my experience with religion. Except without the "naughty little girls" part and I was Southern Baptist, not Pentecostal. Many Southern Baptists also believe that "only the saved go to heaven".

I suppose because of my own experience, I may have formed some unfair opinions of fundamentalism. For example, I believe it borders on abuse to immerse children in one religion. It seems to me that children will believe just about whatever adults tell them. And when you raise a child to only one set of teachings about God, especially dogmatic principles that indicate all other religions are fake with followers bound for hell, that is indoctrination, perhaps even a form of brainwashing, or so it seems to me.

Obviously, Misty was strong enough to break from such dogmatic immersion, but many people are not capable of making such a break and they never even consider that what they've been taught might need to be scrutinized and/or challenged.

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

However, before long the doubts assailed themselves overwhelmingly, and thankfully by the time I married at 19 my faith slipped away, which was a relief. .

how did this transition effect your marriage, if at all?
(only if you feel comfortable answering, i hope it's not too personal of a question.)

 

[Zadok]

I prefer Misty's approach, ie, to think for oneself & arrive at doubt when evidence leads there.
After all, studying what other people say is just their opinions about things unknowable. Their
expertise is no greater.

Thinking for one's self is an illusion and a waste of time especially when such thinking was tried somewhere in the past. Why study mathematics – think for yourself. You must be kidding?? Understanding things that have worked is much better than trying to reinvent anything.

Things unknowable are only such to the uneducated and those that fear the rigors and discipline of learning. Just because someone has misused politics does not mean there is nothing of value to be learned in politics.

I submit; if one wants to learn mathematics one ought to seek out a master of mathematics that is successful and believes in mathematics. I see noting worth learning of anything in mathematics from the slob that has failed the rigors of mathematic logic or professes to not believe mathematics.


If someone were to say they have studied and searched and found something better than mathematics then I am interested – but when someone says, “I cannot understand mathematics or make it work for me – therefore I do not believe in mathematics” – it is my impression I am not talking to someone that intelligent. I find the rigors of religion to have a lot in common with mathematics.

Zadok

 

[S-word]

Thinking for one's self is an illusion and a waste of time especially when such thinking was tried somewhere in the past. Why study mathematics – think for yourself. You must be kidding?? Understanding things that have worked is much better than trying to reinvent anything.

Things unknowable are only such to the uneducated and those that fear the rigors and discipline of learning. Just because someone has misused politics does not mean there is nothing of value to be learned in politics.

I submit; if one wants to learn mathematics one ought to seek out a master of mathematics that is successful and believes in mathematics. I see noting worth learning of anything in mathematics from the slob that has failed the rigors of mathematic logic or professes to not believe mathematics.


If someone were to say they have studied and searched and found something better than mathematics then I am interested – but when someone says, “I cannot understand mathematics or make it work for me – therefore I do not believe in mathematics” – it is my impression I am not talking to someone that intelligent. I find the rigors of religion to have a lot in common with mathematics.

Zadok

Well answered, my sentiments entirely.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thinking for one's self is an illusion and a waste of time.....

That's a pretty amazing statement. To entrust my thinking to people who claim to be my betters is a recipe for illusion or fraud.
How can one be certain that someone else's thinking is all that valid?

Why study mathematics – think for yourself. You must be kidding?? Understanding things that have worked is much better than trying to reinvent anything.

There's a difference. Religion is just a personal invention without basis in fact, so no one person's belief is any more valid than another's.
Mathematics is an a priori science, & not subject to personal whim.

Things unknowable are only such to the uneducated and those that fear the rigors and discipline of learning.

The supernatural is unknowable in an objective way. An education in things like astrology or numerology is not the accumulation of knowledge,
but rather just information about a fictional reality. Great literature it can be, but "truth"? No way.

Just because someone has misused politics does not mean there is nothing of value to be learned in politics.

I addressed her religious conversion, not politics.

 

[jmvizanko]

Understanding things that have worked is much better than trying to reinvent anything.

I know right? I mean, what good has ever come from assuming that the status quo is simply wrong? (quantum mechanics, general relativity, the idea that there isn't a god that wants to torture all of the beings it created for being the way he created them)

 

[Autodidact]

I personally prefer someone's opinion that has arrived at such an opinion having studied, considered and carefully and intelligently tried different options rather than the latest default being before them.

Zadok

What religion were you born into?

 

[Autodidact]

Thinking for one's self is an illusion and a waste of time

I rest my case.

especially when such thinking was tried somewhere in the past. Why study mathematics – think for yourself. You must be kidding?? Understanding things that have worked is much better than trying to reinvent anything.

Things unknowable are only such to the uneducated and those that fear the rigors and discipline of learning. Just because someone has misused politics does not mean there is nothing of value to be learned in politics.

I submit; if one wants to learn mathematics one ought to seek out a master of mathematics that is successful and believes in mathematics. I see noting worth learning of anything in mathematics from the slob that has failed the rigors of mathematic logic or professes to not believe mathematics.


If someone were to say they have studied and searched and found something better than mathematics then I am interested – but when someone says, “I cannot understand mathematics or make it work for me – therefore I do not believe in mathematics” – it is my impression I am not talking to someone that intelligent. I find the rigors of religion to have a lot in common with mathematics.

Zadok

Really? In what way? Are there axioms? Proofs? Purely abstract concepts the truth of which have no counterpart in the physical world?

 

[xxclaro]

These stories sound quite similar to my childhood as well. Raised in a fundamentalist Chrsitian church, I think I was 7-8 when I was born-again. I got really serious about it at about the age of 13 to 14. In that approx. one year span I read the bible probably twice over, spent hours a day in prayer and studying and a the end of it all damn near lost my mind. I knew if I continued on that path I would truly go insane,so I said to hell with it. I leftit behind for some years until I decided to once again start from scratch,this time using the logic and common sense God gave meto try to make sense of everything. Now I understand that I understand very little, and that's fine. I'm free to learn and live and draw conclusions about things as evidence accumulates. I'm also free to leave thsoe conclusions behind if newer and better evidence appears. Kinda nice being free!

 

[Zadok]

I rest my case.

Really? In what way? Are there axioms? Proofs? Purely abstract concepts the truth of which have no counterpart in the physical world?

Mathematics is an abstract model that we “sometime” use to make sense of our physical world. So also religion models life – perhaps even more useful models for more sectors of society. So you can see no axioms or relevant proof in doing unto other as you would have others do unto you; or ending war by doing good to those that hate you. You see no purpose in compassion and love or relevant counterpart for such thinking in the “physical” world?

So many times when I sat in collage mathematic classes several students would say – “Why are we studying Bessel functions or Legendre orthogonal polynomials? – No one uses these in real life”.

Religion and mathematics are disciplines with rules and structure. I have encountered math teachers of my children that I wonder why they are teaching math when they really do not understand math discipline – in many cases they are teaching principles incorrectly, because they really do not understand math. Likewise I have encountered teachers of religion that cannot do hardly anything they teach – and small wonder because they are teaching things they do not understand or know how to apply (discipline) and surprise they are teaching false religion.

Now if someone has found some logic better than religion (not just something better than some idiot calling their rant religion that they do not even live themselves) – let’s hear it – show us. Goodness sometimes I think if some people ever ran across a farmer that did not know much about farming they would quit eating.

I am stunned that enlightenment manifesting itself in society is something to avoid, challenge and denigrate. But to what end?

Zadok

 

[Zadok]

What religion were you born into?

I was born LDS - I can say in all honesty that my father is the greatest man I have ever met and known. Unfortunately I did not believe it growing up. I could not wait to get away from the shadow of my father and moved as far across the country as I could get. But that was when I was growing up.

I am currently LDS because I have not found anything even close to the discipline of love and service offered. For example – I have found no welfare program to aid the poor better than the LDS fast offerings and welfare program. If anyone knows of a better means of providing for the poor I would really like to see it.

Zadok

 

[Misty]

how did this transition effect your marriage, if at all?
(only if you feel comfortable answering, i hope it's not too personal of a question.)

Both my husband and I were 'born agains' on marriage, but we both had doubts. He was extremely intelligent, and the more he studied the more doubts he had (he has four academic degrees, one in science and religion) he is now a convinced atheist. He had a brain haemorrhage after a burst aneurysm in 2006, which has left him brain damaged. But even dicing with death has left him more convinced than ever there is no God, having had some sort of experience whilst in a coma. I read the Bible daily and consider myself an agnostic as a deity could exist somewhere I suppose.

 

[emiliano]

I was unfortunate enough to have been brought up in a fundamentalist Christian home (pentecostal). The pressure to get 'saved' was great even from a young age. I was told at six years old that if Jesus came I would be left behind, which of course is abusive. I had a sadistic grandmother who took pleasure in telling me from the age of two about the tortures of hell for naughty little girls like me! I held out until I was eleven before giving into the pressure and 'giving my heart to Jesus'! I was even devout for a while and embarrassingly trotted out the cliches so beloved of fundamentalist Christians. However, before long the doubts assailed themselves overwhelmingly, and thankfully by the time I married at 19 my faith slipped away, which was a relief. I am firmly of the opinion that the fundamentalist Christian dogma 'only the saved go to heaven the rest to hell', is a silly nonsense and can be very abusive too.

What is agnosticism?
What damages were done to you?
Do Pentecostal teach their children to be bad?
What are those clichés so beloved of fundamentalist Christians and what wrong with them?
I thought that Agnostic means that these people are not sure if God exist or not?
somebody denying God’s existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
I can understand people wanting to accommodate their short comings by accepting only those parts that suit them, thus believing that the existence of God is improbable it would be improbable that there will any consequences for our behaviours, there is nothing that can be more attractive than make our own rules, creating our own gods. So is understandable that some backslide and more than once.
The mistake that we Christian make is that we believe that we can save other. But only God saves. all we can do for other people's converssion is pray.

 

[Tiapan]

Thinking for one's self is an illusion and a waste of time especially when such thinking was tried somewhere in the past. Why study mathematics – think for yourself. You must be kidding?? Understanding things that have worked is much better than trying to reinvent anything.

Things unknowable are only such to the uneducated and those that fear the rigors and discipline of learning. Just because someone has misused politics does not mean there is nothing of value to be learned in politics.

I submit; if one wants to learn mathematics one ought to seek out a master of mathematics that is successful and believes in mathematics. I see noting worth learning of anything in mathematics from the slob that has failed the rigors of mathematic logic or professes to not believe mathematics.


If someone were to say they have studied and searched and found something better than mathematics then I am interested – but when someone says, “I cannot understand mathematics or make it work for me – therefore I do not believe in mathematics” – it is my impression I am not talking to someone that intelligent. I find the rigors of religion to have a lot in common with mathematics.

Zadok

Who teaches the Master, was not the master the student once. Language gives us the ability to pass on to the next generation the mistakes of the past so the student can decide to bypass that which fails. This of course will not deter a young inquiring mind exploring many possibilities on the way, this is how wisdom is built, ie through experience with occasional reference to those whose knowledge is deep.

Remember many good men of deep knowledge believed the earth was flat and only 6000 years old. It was their students that found the truth.

Cheers

 

[Misty]

What is agnosticism?
What damages were done to you?
Do Pentecostal teach their children to be bad?
What are those clichés so beloved of fundamentalist Christians and what wrong with them?
I thought that Agnostic means that these people are not sure if God exist or not?
somebody denying God’s existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
I can understand people wanting to accommodate their short comings by accepting only those parts that suit them, thus believing that the existence of God is improbable it would be improbable that there will any consequences for our behaviours, there is nothing that can be more attractive than make our own rules, creating our own gods. So is understandable that some backslide and more than once.
The mistake that we Christian make is that we believe that we can save other. But only God saves. all we can do for other people's converssion is pray.

Agnosticism means you are not sure if a deity exists.

The idea that if you are not saved you go to hell is very damaging to a child, especially as there is not the slightest shred of evidence that is so! The Pentecostalist preaching can be abusive and evil, imo. The Christians who believe you have to be 'saved' in order to go to heaven are in the minority in the UK, thank goodness.

It is a nonsense to think heaven, if it exists, isn't open to people of all faiths and none. The idea that good people would go to hell just because they aren't 'born again' is crass and stupid, imo.

 

[S-word]

That's a pretty amazing statement. To entrust my thinking to people who claim to be my betters is a recipe for illusion or fraud.

Who taught you all the different subjects in school? Please don't tell us that you were taught by teachers who knew less about those subjects than you. Do you have a trade? If so, was the person to who you were an apprentise, less qualified than your self when you began to learn that trade? Those people not only claimed to be better than you, who learnt from them, They were your betters.