From 'born again' to agnostic

[Magic Man]

Thinking for one's self is an illusion and a waste of time especially when such thinking was tried somewhere in the past. Why study mathematics – think for yourself. You must be kidding?? Understanding things that have worked is much better than trying to reinvent anything.

Things unknowable are only such to the uneducated and those that fear the rigors and discipline of learning. Just because someone has misused politics does not mean there is nothing of value to be learned in politics.

I submit; if one wants to learn mathematics one ought to seek out a master of mathematics that is successful and believes in mathematics. I see noting worth learning of anything in mathematics from the slob that has failed the rigors of mathematic logic or professes to not believe mathematics.


If someone were to say they have studied and searched and found something better than mathematics then I am interested – but when someone says, “I cannot understand mathematics or make it work for me – therefore I do not believe in mathematics” – it is my impression I am not talking to someone that intelligent. I find the rigors of religion to have a lot in common with mathematics.

Zadok

That's quite a weird way of looking at things. Thinking for yourself means taking in information and processing it with your own brain and forming a conclusion. It's the opposite of going along with whatever you're taught just because someone taught it to you. In mathematics, it's the difference between accepting that 3+4=9 just because your teacher taught you that and realizing that it's not 9 but 7.

I find that there's no such thing as "rigors of religion". It's very simple stuff.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ain't it grand? Myself I went from a hardcore Baptist fundamentalist, hating myself and the world in the name of Christ (of course then it was love and concern for the world, and the devil put these sinful desires and thoughts in my head). And now I blaspheme and scorn the god I use to worship and would have died for. I also know that I am who I am, and no longer hate myself because of a religious dogma said I would go to hell for expressing who I am. I also have taken a liking to various Satanic and Luciferian teachings. I had pretty much accepted Jesus from the start, became very serious when I was about 11, and in light of evidence contradicting my beliefs, discovering the church had been lying to me, and much doubt, when I was 16 I finally renounced my faith and haven't looked back since. Those years of living as a Christian have so far been the worst in my life.

 

[emiliano]

Wow, I think that this is the first time I have seen the argument about wanting to live life without responsibility applied to Agnostics, usually its limited to the Atheists.

There is actually nothing wrong with, and in fact it should be a goal for, parents to teach their children to lead a moral life. I don't see the need to teach those selfsame children that they, as humans, are inherently evil as necessary to teaching them to lead a moral life. The whole premise of christianity (as I was taught), that humans are unworthy, flawed, inherently bad, the equivalent of thieves and murderers, and generally all around not nice people unless they feel really really bad about being human and beg forgiveness constantly is repulsive and if and or when I have children (my own spawn or via adoption) I will make sure that none of that crap is taught to them. But I will teach them to be upstanding, good people on their own merits.

I am sure that whatever was the kind of Christians parents and their congregation were they told about the doctrine of Grace, that is an unmerited favour, it is understandable that you were hurt by your parent’s corrections, the question is; were they right in their thought that what you were doing and the way that you were living your life was wrong?
I understand your decision to just deny God because deep inside you knew of your sins.
Is not that we are inherently bad. But rather that we have a tendency toward pleasing ourselves regardless the consequences, it is the duty of our parents to guide us and show us our errors. Do you hate your parents because of this?

 

[emiliano]

You understand wrong. People become agnostic because they come to believe that it is not possible to know whether God exists or not. Attributing bogus psychological explanations may comfort you in your belief, but it is inaccurate and arrogant. In seeking to be careful about what is known and not known, agnostics are exercising morality.

Robert Ingersoll

I used this dictionary definition thanks anyways.
agnosticism
agnosticism [ag nóstissizəm]
n
view that God’s existence is unprovable: the belief that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Well you can stay in the certainty that Ingersoll is right, I live by faith.

 

[Misty]

I am an agnostic as I have no idea if a deity exists somewhere, but I am pretty sure the God of the Bible is a human concept.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I am sure that whatever was the kind of Christians parents and their congregation were they told about the doctrine of Grace, that is an unmerited favour, it is understandable that you were hurt by your parent’s corrections, the question is; were they right in their thought that what you were doing and the way that you were living your life was wrong?
I understand your decision to just deny God because deep inside you knew of your sins.
Is not that we are inherently bad. But rather that we have a tendency toward pleasing ourselves regardless the consequences, it is the duty of our parents to guide us and show us our errors. Do you hate your parents because of this?

There is a difference between making ones children aware of their deviant behaviour (i use deviant as meaning deviating from the socially accepted norms) and punishing them for it and telling them they will be tortured for enternity.

Children do not need this sick concept giving them nightmares.

-Q

 

[emiliano]

I am an agnostic as I have no idea if a deity exists somewhere, but I am pretty sure the God of the Bible is a human concept.

That is your choice, we will find out who is right and who is wrong when we take our dirt nap, I am as sure that He does exist. Sorry but I can resist to point out that this last statement contradict what you have been saying about agnosticism. I thing that you are not sure or that you can’t know it.
Why people like to call themselves what they are not?
Now you say that you are sure, what is it?

 

[emiliano]

There is a difference between making ones children aware of their deviant behaviour (i use deviant as meaning deviating from the socially accepted norms) and punishing them for it and telling them they will be tortured for enternity.

Children do not need this sick concept giving them nightmares.

-Q

I agreed with that, it is an over kill, what I am saying is that surely the doctrine of Grace must it been taught to them, when in doubt we must seek the answers in the word of God if still in doubt seek God’s revelation, I doubt very much that at any stage children are taught that there is no way out of this horrible place if they are willing to seek and walk with Jesus the saviour.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Jer 29:12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you.
Psa 86:5 For You, Lord, [are] good, and ready to forgive, And abundant in mercy to all those who call upon You.

 

[Misty]

That is your choice, we will find out who is right and who is wrong when we take our dirt nap, I am as sure that He does exist. Sorry but I can resist to point out that this last statement contradict what you have been saying about agnosticism. I thing that you are not sure or that you can’t know it.
Why people like to call themselves what they are not?
Now you say that you are sure, what is it?

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I agreed with that, it is an over kill, what I am saying is that surely the doctrine of Grace must it been taught to them, when in doubt we must seek the answers in the word of God if still in doubt seek God’s revelation, I doubt very much that at any stage children are taught that there is no way out of this horrible place if they are willing to seek and walk with Jesus the saviour.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Jer 29:12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you.
Psa 86:5 For You, Lord, [are] good, and ready to forgive, And abundant in mercy to all those who call upon You.

They need to be taught right and wrong.

They need to be taught that they and they alone are responsible for their actions.

They need to be taught that they and they alone are responsible for the consequences of their actions.

And if in doubt they should consult, what i personally believe is the golden rule:

"an it harm none, do as you will"

You could substitute this for:

"do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

However i believe this leads to a certain amount of leeway. As one could feel justified in killing another person if they themselves believe they should be killed for the same act.

There is no need to bring some supernatural agent of punishment into it.

-Q

 

[MurphtheSurf]

Excellent topic indeed!
Here we see how false religion has messed up many peoples viewpoints of God and what the Bible really teaches.
The truth is out there.

 

[Duck]

I am sure that whatever was the kind of Christians parents and their congregation were they told about the doctrine of Grace, that is an unmerited favour, it is understandable that you were hurt by your parent’s corrections, the question is; were they right in their thought that what you were doing and the way that you were living your life was wrong?
I understand your decision to just deny God because deep inside you knew of your sins.
Is not that we are inherently bad. But rather that we have a tendency toward pleasing ourselves regardless the consequences, it is the duty of our parents to guide us and show us our errors. Do you hate your parents because of this?

No I don't hate my parents. I am not very pleased with them. It is not that I was hurt by their "corrections" it is that there wasn't actually much of that, mostly due to the fact that they were drunk most of the time. So, NO, they were NOT "right in their thought" that the way I was living my life was wrong. If anything, I was right in my thought that THEY were pretty ****** up individuals and I should pretty much do exactly the opposite of what they did throughout my life. Since I am successful and well balanced and generally speaking a good person, I think I chose the correct path by doing so.

I chose to deny the christian religion because it is inconsistent internally, it is evil as practiced (by the churches I grew up in), it denigrates women, all minorities, scientists and just about anyone else that the congregants or priests take a dislike to. All while claiming to love everyone. It is anti-equality, makes no effort to follow the teachings of its nominal prophet/messiah (you know, CHRIST), focusing instead on maintaining its secular wealth, enforcing its mores on all of society, and keeping its adherents (and everyone else it can) ignorant, complacent and fearful.

NOT a healthy environment for anyone at all.

I was taught that as a human being, simply for being born, I was doomed to eternal torture and burning unless I abjectly begged at every turn for jesus to come and save me. I was further taught that a gay man is beyond the pale, beyond saving, doomed to hell fire and eternal torture no matter what. Your posts and others in this and similar threads have only reinforced the wisdom of my decision when I was 16 to leave the christian church forever. My Gods will judge me on my actions in life, and don't consider a person worthy of eternal torment for merely existing as the christian faith does.

 

[Misty]

Nobody is deserving of eternal torment not even the worst of us!

 

[Revoltingest]

Nobody is deserving of eternal torment not even the worst of us!

Speak for yourself. Some of us work hard to earn God's scorn.

 

[Magic Man]

Excellent topic indeed!
Here we see how false religion has messed up many peoples viewpoints of God and what the Bible really teaches.
The truth is out there.

I take it "false religion" is anything that disagrees with your take on religion.

 

[jml03]

I am very sympathetic to Mistys youth. Sounds quite familiar to a prom movie where a girls mother is quite wicked in her religion - I'm sure everyone knows which movie it is. All that aside, the quickest way to push someone away - is to force your beliefs on them and tell them there is no other way. How sad, this has made a tremendous impact on your life. In all honesty, those of us that push people away from God, will have to answer one day for this.

 

[Luminous]

That is your choice, we will find out who is right and who is wrong when we take our dirt nap, I am as sure that He does exist. Sorry but I can resist to point out that this last statement contradict what you have been saying about agnosticism. I thing that you are not sure or that you can’t know it.
Why people like to call themselves what they are not?
Now you say that you are sure, what is it?

Odd, because as i see it, you are the one to call yourself what you are not. a true jesusite christian would not own a computer as Jesus of Nazareth comanded all his followers to denounce all their possesions and give them to the poor heathens. As I am sure that what God revealed to me is true, IT will not judge you kindly. Agnosticism is the ultimate and only truth, as revealed by God to human kind, each upon their birth are born Agnostic, those who denounce this truth are thus liars and betrayers and in need of incineration for purification in the afterlife. Those who follow idol scripture are even in more need of purification. We are sure of Agnosticism, because it is Truth. The only thing that i know for certain, is that i know nothing else for certain. Refering back to your sharp question: please, stop playing with semantics.

 

[Autodidact]

I used this dictionary definition thanks anyways.
agnosticism
agnosticism [ag nóstissizəm]
n
view that God’s existence is unprovable: the belief that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Well you can stay in the certainty that Ingersoll is right, I live by faith.

Which an agnostic sees as immoral.

 

[Autodidact]

That is your choice, we will find out who is right and who is wrong when we take our dirt nap,

Actually no. We'll be dead.

 

[Autodidact]

That is your choice, we will find out who is right and who is wrong when we take our dirt nap, I am as sure that He does exist. Sorry but I can resist to point out that this last statement contradict what you have been saying about agnosticism. I thing that you are not sure or that you can’t know it.
Why people like to call themselves what they are not?
Now you say that you are sure, what is it?

If I may interject on Misty's behalf, I believe she's saying she's agnostic as to some God-concepts, which may be exist or cannot be proven not to exist, but not as to Yahweh, which the evidence strongly indicates does not exist, at least as described in the Bible.