From 'born again' to agnostic

[Revoltingest]

That's a pretty amazing statement. To entrust my thinking to people who claim to be my betters is a recipe for illusion or fraud.

Who taught you all the different subjects in school? Please don't tell us that you were taught by teachers who knew less about those subjects than you. Do you have a trade? If so, was the person to who you were an apprentise, less qualified than your self when you began to learn that trade? Those people not only claimed to be better than you, who learnt from them, They were your betters.

Sigh....I've already covered this. Subjects such as science & math can be objectively studied, since the material is the same for all of us. Moreover, there are techniques & methods which can be difficult to learn. Yet even with these, one should still think for oneself, lest the fields stagnate. After all, science is all about continual revolution. But religion is all a construct based upon whim, & differs from person to person & culture to culture. The supernatural is not fact - it's just someone else telling you about their myths as though they were factual. In Misty's case, her teachers were being abusive too, something no one should just put up with. In matters spiritual especially, one should not abdicate the freedom & responsibility to think for oneself. The smartest priest, most learned imam, or most clever rabbi has no greater authority over things spiritual than you or I.

 

[*Anne*]

Misty, I'm so sorry you experienced that as a child. I grew up with religion, but it was never presented to me in such a scary fashion like that.

I hope you have found and will continue to find peace on your chosen path.

 

[Misty]

Misty, I'm so sorry you experienced that as a child. I grew up with religion, but it was never presented to me in such a scary fashion like that.

I hope you have found and will continue to find peace on your chosen path.

Thanks Anne. My husband and I learnt from our parents mistakes, and let our children choose for themselves about matters of faith, they all opted to attend church and Sunday school as children. The eldest girl stuck with it and is now an Anglican Priest, not a fundamentalist, thank goodness.

 

[Autodidact]

Mathematics is an abstract model that we “sometime” use to make sense of our physical world. So also religion models life – perhaps even more useful models for more sectors of society. So you can see no axioms or relevant proof in doing unto other as you would have others do unto you; or ending war by doing good to those that hate you. You see no purpose in compassion and love or relevant counterpart for such thinking in the “physical” world?

I do, but I don't find any of those to be religious.

So many times when I sat in collage mathematic classes several students would say – “Why are we studying Bessel functions or Legendre orthogonal polynomials? – No one uses these in real life”.

Religion and mathematics are disciplines with rules and structure.

I beg to differ. In any given religion, no two believers can agree on what the rules are, nor is there any method for determining that.

I have encountered math teachers of my children that I wonder why they are teaching math when they really do not understand math discipline – in many cases they are teaching principles incorrectly, because they really do not understand math. Likewise I have encountered teachers of religion that cannot do hardly anything they teach – and small wonder because they are teaching things they do not understand or know how to apply (discipline) and surprise they are teaching false religion.

The difference being that there is no way to determine who is right, you or them. They are equally entitled to assert that your religion is false, and there is no way to determine which of you is right. That's how it works when what you're studying is imaginary.

Now if someone has found some logic better than religion (not just something better than some idiot calling their rant religion that they do not even live themselves) – let’s hear it – show us. Goodness sometimes I think if some people ever ran across a farmer that did not know much about farming they would quit eating.

If the farmer planted invisible seeds in his mind, it would more resemble religion.

I am stunned that enlightenment manifesting itself in society is something to avoid, challenge and denigrate. But to what end?

I agree. I blame religion.

 

[Autodidact]

I was born LDS - I can say in all honesty that my father is the greatest man I have ever met and known. Unfortunately I did not believe it growing up. I could not wait to get away from the shadow of my father and moved as far across the country as I could get. But that was when I was growing up.

I am currently LDS because I have not found anything even close to the discipline of love and service offered. For example – I have found no welfare program to aid the poor better than the LDS fast offerings and welfare program. If anyone knows of a better means of providing for the poor I would really like to see it.

Zadok

So let me get this. You were born LDS. By wild coincidence you happen to end up LDS. Yet you personally prefer someone's opinion that has arrived at such an opinion having studied, considered and carefully and intelligently tried different options rather than the latest default being before them.

And you don't see any inconsistency there?

 

[doppelganger]

Mathematics is an abstract model that we “sometime” use to make sense of our physical world.

Not necessarily to make "sense" of it but rather to make "use" of it. In matters of ontology, usefulness masquerades as "truth." But the only actual criteria for ontological truth is usefulness. This is why scientific models and theories change as purposes change. They are dictated by purpose. As School House Rock long ago acknowledged it's all about "Mother Necessity."

 

[Duck]

The terrible thing for me was I WAS the fundie (or a reasonable facsimilie thereof) at home. Then thankfully, I matured some, and picked up on my parents annoyance at the random people stopping at the house uninvited and blocking the drive as we tried to go grocery (and other) shopping. I realized that the fervor expressed by everyone else at church was not mine, and that I had some serious questions that couldn't be answered.

Eventually, I met some wonderful medieval recreationists (thank you SCAers!) and was introduced to the wonders of other viewpoints than christianity! I read some of the Eddas and decided that the Norse way felt more right to me, so voila! A Heathen was born.

 

[jmvizanko]

I can understand people wanting to accommodate their short comings by accepting only those parts that suit them, thus believing that the existence of God is improbable it would be improbable that there will any consequences for our behaviours, there is nothing that can be more attractive than make our own rules, creating our own gods. So is understandable that some backslide and more than once.

Oh boy, the old "atheists are atheists so they can avoid consequences and do whatever they want" garbage. Did it ever occur to you that some people actually just think that god's existence is unknowable or flat out unlikely?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Thinking for one's self is an illusion and a waste of time especially when such thinking was tried somewhere in the past.

This is the singularly most ignorant thing i've ever seen on this forum.

Where would we be if columbus said "You know what you're right the world is flat"

Where would we be if someone said "yes bloodletting is the only way to treat illnesses"

Where would we be if no one ever thought for themselves. Where would we be if everyone believed every superstition they ever heard.

We'd still be living in caves, banging rocks together. Because no one would have tried anything new.

Let's all bang rocks together so ignorant people don't have to risk having their beliefs challenged.

 

[emiliano]

Who teaches the Master, was not the master the student once. Language gives us the ability to pass on to the next generation the mistakes of the past so the student can decide to bypass that which fails. This of course will not deter a young inquiring mind exploring many possibilities on the way, this is how wisdom is built, ie through experience with occasional reference to those whose knowledge is deep.

Remember many good men of deep knowledge believed the earth was flat and only 6000 years old. It was their students that found the truth.

Cheers

That is what I knew of the subject, tell me what wrong with teaching children about the need to live a moral life?
This got to do with the need of repentance for our sins and try to sin no more.
When we repent for our sins, that is what no man is free of, we are saved meaning that if we die in that condition we go to God’s kingdom. I can not know and provably you won’t tell us, but I’ll ask “ What where the reason given to you for they thinking that you needed to be saved? This is unless you don’t ever sin? Did they ever tell you that there is a way out, the Grace of God and His mercy?
Did they tell you that God will judge, of His justice and misericordias?
I am glad that you say that this is your opinion and surely you have your reasons, I consider myself a Christian that do not discount the possibility that even the worst of sinner can be saved. What do you recommend to parent that do and teach their children that are living in sin and without repentance?
As I understand that some people may resort to Agnosticism because it will free them from their responsibilities to follow Gods laws and live the kind of life that that it seem right to them. I do not recommend this course of action. What if He does exist?

 

[emiliano]

Agnosticism means you are not sure if a deity exists.

The idea that if you are not saved you go to hell is very damaging to a child, especially as there is not the slightest shred of evidence that is so! The Pentecostalist preaching can be abusive and evil, imo. The Christians who believe you have to be 'saved' in order to go to heaven are in the minority in the UK, thank goodness.

It is a nonsense to think heaven, if it exists, isn't open to people of all faiths and none. The idea that good people would go to hell just because they aren't 'born again' is crass and stupid, imo.

That is what I knew of the subject, tell me what wrong with teaching children about the need to live a moral life?
This got to do with the need of repentance for our sins and try to sin no more.
When we repent for our sins, that is what no man is free of, we are saved meaning that if we die in that condition we go to God’s kingdom. I can not know and provably you won’t tell us, but I’ll ask “ What where the reason given to you for they thinking that you needed to be saved? This is unless you don’t ever sin? Did they ever tell you that there is a way out, the Grace of God and His mercy?
Did they tell you that God will judge, of His justice and misericordias?
I am glad that you say that this is your opinion and surely you have your reasons, I consider myself a Christian that do not discount the possibility that even the worst of sinner can be saved. What do you recommend to parent that do teach their children that are living in sin and without repentance?
As I understand that some people may resort to Agnosticism because it will free them from their responsibilities to follow Gods laws and live the kind of life that that it seem right to them. I do not recommend this course of action. What if He does exist?

 

[Misty]

We brought up our children well and as adult they are a credit to us! You don't need to hold a sick dogma over them to encourage them to behave properly! the idea that only the so called 'saved' go to heaven however bad they are, yet a good atheist would go to hell is an evil nonsense!

 

[emiliano]

Oh boy, the old "atheists are atheists so they can avoid consequences and do whatever they want" garbage. Did it ever occur to you that some people actually just think that god's existence is unknowable or flat out unlikely?

I was addressing their possible motives. If you care to read the OP and previous opinions we are in the subject of backsliders. “From 'born again' to agnostic” people that profess a faith and when things get difficult turn and become enemies of their former faith. There is a parable that teaches it well.

 

[emiliano]

We brought up our children well and as adult they are a credit to us! You don't need to hold a sick dogma over them to encourage them to behave properly! the idea that only the so called 'saved' go to heaven however bad they are, yet a good atheist would go to hell is an evil nonsense!

So not only you are sinless but you also brought up children that are also sinless.
The thing with Christianity is that God knows everything that we do and can not be deceived, on the other hand we and those that give us credit don’t know and can be deceived. I would like to do good all the time but I don’t although that some people may think that I am good, God knows that I am not perfect that I need many things that need to be improved. That I need the Saviour.

 

[Misty]

So not only you are sinless but you also brought up children that are also sinless.
The thing with Christianity is that God knows everything that we do and can not be deceived, on the other hand we and those that give us credit don’t know and can be deceived. I would like to do good all the time but I don’t although that some people may think that I am good, God knows that I am not perfect that I need many things that need to be improved. That I need the Saviour.

All that matters is that we are good enough, in my opinion. The God of the Bible is more 'sinful' than any human has ever been, I hope we would want to be better than that nasty character!

 

[emiliano]

All that matters is that we are good enough, in my opinion. The God of the Bible is more 'sinful' than any human has ever been, I hope we would want to be better than that nasty character!

This is exactly the problem, it is in your own opinion, the problem is that it is God’s kingdom not your kingdom that Christians desire to enter, if you don’t believe that God exist you can not asking him for entrance to His kingdom. Surely you learned that God demand repentance of your past to show you mercy and gives you the gift of faith that it is your Salvation, the easy way is offcourse deny the God that you once believed in.
That is the advantage of taken only the part that suit you or simply create our own doctrines, I notice that you are pretty good at judging other and blame them for everything. What have God done to you? What sins has He committed against you?

 

[Misty]

This is exactly the problem, it is in your own opinion, the problem is that it is God’s kingdom not your kingdom that Christians desire to enter, if you don’t believe that God exist you can not asking him for entrance to His kingdom. Surely you learned that God demand repentance of your past to show you mercy and gives you the gift of faith that it is your Salvation, the easy way is offcourse deny the God that you once believed in.
That is the advantage of taken only the part that suit you or simply create our own doctrines, I notice that you are pretty good at judging other and blame them for everything. What have God done to you? What sins has He committed against you?

Your dogma is created by humans too!

I speak as I find, the faith of my childhood was abusive and did me no favours. It took me a long time to shake of that evil. I will challenge the abuse that fundamentalist Christianity can cause to children and the vulnerable, in particular. I have no problem at all with the live and let live attitude of mainstream Christians

 

[Duck]

That is what I knew of the subject, tell me what wrong with teaching children about the need to live a moral life?
This got to do with the need of repentance for our sins and try to sin no more.
When we repent for our sins, that is what no man is free of, we are saved meaning that if we die in that condition we go to God’s kingdom. I can not know and provably you won’t tell us, but I’ll ask “ What where the reason given to you for they thinking that you needed to be saved? This is unless you don’t ever sin? Did they ever tell you that there is a way out, the Grace of God and His mercy?
Did they tell you that God will judge, of His justice and misericordias?
I am glad that you say that this is your opinion and surely you have your reasons, I consider myself a Christian that do not discount the possibility that even the worst of sinner can be saved. What do you recommend to parent that do teach their children that are living in sin and without repentance?
As I understand that some people may resort to Agnosticism because it will free them from their responsibilities to follow Gods laws and live the kind of life that that it seem right to them. I do not recommend this course of action. What if He does exist?

Wow, I think that this is the first time I have seen the argument about wanting to live life without responsibility applied to Agnostics, usually its limited to the Atheists.

There is actually nothing wrong with, and in fact it should be a goal for, parents to teach their children to lead a moral life. I don't see the need to teach those selfsame children that they, as humans, are inherently evil as necessary to teaching them to lead a moral life. The whole premise of christianity (as I was taught), that humans are unworthy, flawed, inherently bad, the equivalent of thieves and murderers, and generally all around not nice people unless they feel really really bad about being human and beg forgiveness constantly is repulsive and if and or when I have children (my own spawn or via adoption) I will make sure that none of that crap is taught to them. But I will teach them to be upstanding, good people on their own merits.

 

[Misty]

Wow, I think that this is the first time I have seen the argument about wanting to live life without responsibility applied to Agnostics, usually its limited to the Atheists.

There is actually nothing wrong with, and in fact it should be a goal for, parents to teach their children to lead a moral life. I don't see the need to teach those selfsame children that they, as humans, are inherently evil as necessary to teaching them to lead a moral life. The whole premise of christianity (as I was taught), that humans are unworthy, flawed, inherently bad, the equivalent of thieves and murderers, and generally all around not nice people unless they feel really really bad about being human and beg forgiveness constantly is repulsive and if and or when I have children (my own spawn or via adoption) I will make sure that none of that crap is taught to them. But I will teach them to be upstanding, good people on their own merits.

Good post.

 

[Autodidact]

As I understand that some people may resort to Agnosticism because it will free them from their responsibilities to follow Gods laws and live the kind of life that that it seem right to them. I do not recommend this course of action. What if He does exist?

You understand wrong. People become agnostic because they come to believe that it is not possible to know whether God exists or not. Attributing bogus psychological explanations may comfort you in your belief, but it is inaccurate and arrogant. In seeking to be careful about what is known and not known, agnostics are exercising morality.

...it is wrong for a man to say that he is certain of the objective truth of any proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts; and, in my opinion, it is all that is essential to agnosticism. That which agnostics deny and repudiate as immoral is the contrary doctrine, that there are propositions which men ought to believe, without logically satisfactory evidence.

Robert Ingersoll