From The Heart of an Honest Muslim!

[icehorse]

I understand what you mean .. but you can't deny that there has been great progress in technology.
Some people seem to think that scientific progress has all the answers to provide us with utopia.
..if only it were true!

I'd say that secular values are progress.

 

[outhouse]

Some people seem to think that scientific progress has all the answers to provide us with utopia.

Which has little to do with a society progressing forward.

Society is judge by many factors, quality of life and freedom, how much violence is committed, and how educated are the people as a whole.

You seem to stereotype science quickly

 

[loverofhumanity]

The issues covered in the email show some ignorance about Islam. Firstly in the Quran it is clearly established that self defense is the only form of fighting permitted. (2:190) That can be confirmed by any knowledgeable Muslim. Next, the age of A!isha. I have thoroughly investigated the matter and she was in fact 17-19 when Muhammad consumed the marriage. I encourage readers to buy the book A'isha from Amazon which is one of the books that proves this accusation to be false.

The beating of the wife. In the English version of the Quran the translation is wrong. 4:34 by many translators states 'beat' but later goes on to say not to harm. The word DARAB in Arabic has about 100 meanings and definitions. One of them is to 'separate' and that is the correct translation because if it said to beat it would have to stipulate what to beat and how long and with what and also when Muhammad had problems He would 'walk away' and separate for a while but never beat. What was meant was to separate from the wife.

It appears this letter is from a person who uses an English Quran and is not very conversant with Islam as they claim on the one hand to be an apologist but on the other go on about A'ishah when every true Muslim would defend the Mother of Islam and many are doing now. The letter claims to be an apology to try and make Islam look better but in reality it does more harm to Islam by reminding people of unpleasant accusations. It's like say "I'm sorry Jesus got angry at the money changers and overthrew tables. It was wrong and he shouldn't have done that" instead of trying to CLEAR up the misunderstanding. A true Muslim would try and clear up the misunderstanding as these things are all false accusations and I have proved that to myself. There is no need to be ashamed and apologise just clear the misunderstand up.

 

[outhouse]

Firstly in the Quran it is clearly established that self defense is the only form of fighting permitted.

There are contradicting verses. The koran is not followed in full by many muslims due to its vague nature and other verses that demand action.

Islamic societies do however practice regularly much of what the OP states as a general rule

Next, the age of A!isha. I have thoroughly investigated the matter and she was in fact 17-19 when Muhammad consumed the marriage.

6 is when they were married and 9 is the typical number for consumation. Reality is we don't know, could have been 6 for all we know.

The beating of the wife.

Common in countries that wont let women drive and oppress their freedom in an obvious male dominated society

 

[icehorse]

SF said:

Neither one of you are seeing the forests for the trees. Yeah, Islam has problems but all religions have problems, including non-religious worldviews. The common denominator is flawed humans. My own religion has been misused and abused throughout the last two millenia to rationalize evil behavior.

As long as you're willing to say that religion can't take credit for anything, I'm okay with you deflecting any criticism from religion. But you can't eat your cake and have it too.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Islam was born during at a guess one of the most violent times in history , think it was violent during the times of Christ ? I'd suggest it was even more violent during the times of Mohammed .
Al-Bari maybe one day some Muslim scholar will catapult the Koran into the 21st century were we really are a lot more civilized than we used to be ;-)
Assuming God exists in this capacity in the first place which is highly unlikely given the evidence of reality on earth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

6QUOTE="loverofhumanity, post: 4606452, member: 59171"]Firstly in the Quran it is clearly established that self defense is the only form of fighting permitted.

There are contradicting verses. The koran is not followed in full by many muslims due to its vague nature and other verses that demand action.

Islamic societies do however practice regularly much of what the OP states as a general rule



6 is when they were married and 9 is the typical number for consumation. Reality is we don't know, could have been 6 for all we know.



Common in countries that wont let women drive and oppress their freedom in an obvious male dominated society[/QUOTE]

There are no contradictory verses in the Quran. Sura 2:190 sets the parameters for ALL battles and was revealed in Medina and it covers all instances where a verse says to fight and attack meaning those that have attacked first.

So attacking unbelievers means to only attack unbelievers who have attacked them first. No battle in the Quran is not linked to 2:190 "do not attack unless attacked first. God loves not such injustice".

After Muhammad died the Caliphs gradually began to disregard the law of defense and became greedy and ambitious and created offensive Jihad in the year 666AD with the Umayyad dynasty then Abbasids then the Ottomans.

Isis want to reestablish the Caliphate which were never the true successors of Muhammad any way, Ali was. That is why the Quran says the Lord will come on the Day of Resurrection and bring a new religion because Islam became corrupted.

 

[outhouse]

Yet there are those who see problems in islam and want these addressed and not ignored.

Do you not think there is room for improvement ?

 

[icehorse]

The issues covered in the email show some ignorance about Islam. Firstly in the Quran it is clearly established that self defense is the only form of fighting permitted. (2:190) That can be confirmed by any knowledgeable Muslim. Next, the age of A!isha. I have thoroughly investigated the matter and she was in fact 17-19 when Muhammad consumed the marriage. I encourage readers to buy the book A'isha from Amazon which is one of the books that proves this accusation to be false.

The beating of the wife. In the English version of the Quran the translation is wrong. 4:34 by many translators states 'beat' but later goes on to say not to harm. The word DARAB in Arabic has about 100 meanings and definitions. One of them is to 'separate' and that is the correct translation because if it said to beat it would have to stipulate what to beat and how long and with what and also when Muhammad had problems He would 'walk away' and separate for a while but never beat. What was meant was to separate from the wife.

It appears this letter is from a person who uses an English Quran and is not very conversant with Islam as they claim on the one hand to be an apologist but on the other go on about A'ishah when every true Muslim would defend the Mother of Islam and many are doing now. The letter claims to be an apology to try and make Islam look better but in reality it does more harm to Islam by reminding people of unpleasant accusations. It's like say "I'm sorry Jesus got angry at the money changers and overthrew tables. It was wrong and he shouldn't have done that" instead of trying to CLEAR up the misunderstanding. A true Muslim would try and clear up the misunderstanding as these things are all false accusations and I have proved that to myself. There is no need to be ashamed and apologise just clear the misunderstand up.

I've heard those interpretations before, and I've heard many different interpretations. I've never heard a convincing argument that defends why we should believe a particular interpretation. So, why should we give your interpretations special weight? For example, when you bring up "self defense" - if you look at past threads here you'll see many long threads discussing just this one point.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'd say that secular values are progress.

That's a meaningless statement.
If people are 'good', then secular values will reflect that .. same if society is 'evil'.

Democracy only works when the people are reasonable.
Which countries' secular values do you refer to?

 

[outhouse]

If people are 'good', then secular values will reflect that

Not really true.

What we are talking about has to do with education levels.

The major nations are not divided by good and bad. They are divided by sectarian differences and religious differences, and different levels of fanaticism that reflect their secular nature.

 

[LuisDantas]

That's a meaningless statement.
If people are 'good', then secular values will reflect that .. same if society is 'evil'.

Democracy only works when the people are reasonable.
Which countries' secular values do you refer to?

Secularism involves, among other advantages, that of protecting religious minorities' rights.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I can only convinced myself not anyone else. Everyone must investigate truth for himself/herself. I can only share with people what I have discovered.

 

[outhouse]

I can only convinced myself not anyone else. Everyone must investigate truth for himself/herself. I can only share with people what I have discovered.

Do you not think there is room for improvement ?

 

[LuisDantas]

I can only convinced myself not anyone else. Everyone must investigate truth for himself/herself. I can only share with people what I have discovered.

Don't you think that might be a bit too strong a statement? People may and do learn from each other.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Don't you think that might be a bit too strong a statement? People may and do learn from each other.

I just meant it's not for me to say I'm right and everybody else is wrong. I love to learn from you all. I think you people here are AWESOME! Thanks for putting up with me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you not think there is room for improvement ?

Of course. Totally agree.

 

[icehorse]

That's a meaningless statement.
If people are 'good', then secular values will reflect that .. same if society is 'evil'.

Democracy only works when the people are reasonable.
Which countries' secular values do you refer to?

I like to use the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights (UNDHR), as my baseline.

 

[LuisDantas]

I just meant it's not for me to say I'm right and everybody else is wrong. I love to learn from you all. I think you people here are AWESOME! Thanks for putting up with me.

I'm considering stopping putting up with you until you decide that you may be right and me wrong. What do you think?

 

[paarsurrey]

I can only convinced myself not anyone else. Everyone must investigate truth for himself/herself. I can only share with people what I have discovered.

One could help others with comparing/sharing one's notes with others to find the truth.
Regards