Frustrated athiest asks why do you believe in God?

[TagliatelliMonster]

Like atheists trying to take everything joyful out of life?

How so?

Bashing nativity scenes and religious displays because it offends thier delicate sensibilities?

I challenge you to find me a couple of examples of this where THAT was the reason.

The examples I know about, were a case of violations of secular principles because the scenes were done on, and sponsored by, public government buildings / grounds which aren't supposed to promote specific religious beliefs.

It had nothing to do with it being "joyful" or not.




Having said all that.... no, your response has nothing to do with the statement you are responding to. You asked why one would care about what other people believe.

My answer was: because beliefs inform actions and those actions potentially impact society and myself. That's why.

Let's go all Godwin on you, perhaps then you'll be able to understand.
If you were a jew and as it turns out your neighbour holds deeply rooted nazi beliefs, wouldn't you want to know about that? You wouldn't care? It wouldn't bother you?

 

[cladking]

Nothing at all evolves.

There's a very simple reason nothing evolves. Survival of the fittest requires a steady niche and a steady population but nothing can last. Niches do more evolving than species but even this evolution is invisible because it is seen only as fits and starts.

Most change in species occurs between niches rather than within them.

 

[Ostronomos]

One to be aware of is that no theist comes to a rational and fact-based conclusion that any God exists. They believe for non-rational reasons, and since this is the case it's understandable that reason can't be used to help them assess and reverse their judgment that a God exists. Studies with brain scans show that theists do not process religious thoughts through their frontal lobes. these ideas and belief actually bypasses the reasoning center.

Some do. I am one.

God is the relationship between mind and matter. Therefore an individual either denies that God exists or they admit that there is more to reality than space, time and object. God, being beyond space, time and object can be mathematically and logically proven. I am one of the only people in the world capable of this feat. Hence my motivation to mathematically prove what every being instictually knows.

 

[Wildswanderer]

How so?



I challenge you to find me a couple of examples of this where THAT was the reason.

The examples I know about, were a case of violations of secular principles because the scenes were done on, and sponsored by, public government buildings / grounds which aren't supposed to promote specific religious beliefs.

It had nothing to do with it being "joyful" or not.




Having said all that.... no, your response has nothing to do with the statement you are responding to. You asked why one would care about what other people believe.

My answer was: because beliefs inform actions and those actions potentially impact society and myself. That's why.

Let's go all Godwin on you, perhaps then you'll be able to understand.
If you were a jew and as it turns out your neighbour holds deeply rooted nazi beliefs, wouldn't you want to know about that? You wouldn't care? It wouldn't bother you?

Comparing Christianity to Nazis?
My, that escalated quickly.
That also has nothing to do with this discussion, the question is whether someone believing in God's existence somehow should matter to the atheist. Why would it?
Again, overall religion makes people happier and more fulfilled. And they generally don't drink as much... And on average give more to charity. And they are more likely to be an involved citizen and vote. These all sound like positives, so why would you care about people believing in a higher power?
Are religious people happier, healthier? Our new global study explores this question

 

[ChristineM]

All fine and dandy but it ignores the existence of paradigm shifts.

Nothing at all evolves. Even human knowledge is not linear and never has been. Just like biological niches progress is a kind of punctuated equilibrium and practitioners in science must periodically change their beliefs like donning the clothing of a new species. Of course individual scientists can't do this and must die off (suddenly) just like in real life so scientific beliefs only change one funeral at a time.

While humans are amazing in their ability to identify patterns they are virtually incapable of seeing things through another's eyes or from other perspectives. You can't see Newton's perspective so you believe it is just about the same as yours.

Yes things evolved from the smallest bacteria to the universe itself.

Sorry bud, thats not how science works. It is a learning process, thst learning evolves as new knowledge is acquired.

And the last paragraph is something of a straw man i think. Newtons documentation exists.

 

[Heyo]

Believing is not the decision to value faith over rationality because a religious belief can be rational.

But they usually aren't. I guess you'd be hard pressed to find more than a handful of examples.
I can rationally show the resting of all theorems in geometry on the axioms of Euclid. (Rational, from Latin "ratio" = root.) What are the axioms of your belief system and what are the theorems you can rationally show to rest on those?

 

[Fool]

Summary: Why do you believe in God? What do you find to be the most compelling evidence that God exists?

Long Version:
I have found that I am getting frustrated at the thought of people who do not listen to reason, logic, evidence, and facts. You may have noticed this frustration seeping into the conversations I have on RF. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just angry at you for not seeing what I see, which is not really fair. I'll will try to have more patience and explain things more clearly in the future.

One way to influence others is to first be influenced by them. In other words, seek first to understand, then to be understood. Maybe I would be less frustrated if I actually knew the reasons why you believe in God. Help me understand, and in turn I will respectfully respond, and if you care to hear I will respond with the reasons why I don't believe in God.

Thank you in advance for the conversation

for dualists, and too often observers altogether, the universe and self are separated things. for many god, or the divine, is something separate from self. an absolute can't be separate into parts because it's always one whole.

there is only ONE self, its forms are temporary. itself is eternal as unformed

 

[HonestJoe]

Summary: Why do you believe in God? What do you find to be the most compelling evidence that God exists?

As a rule, I doubt you're going to convince them any more than they're going to convince you. If that frustrates you, I'd respectfully suggest you'd be better off avoiding the topic entirely.

It is perfectly possible to understand why some people have faith without agreeing with them. We all believe or accept things for irrational reasons sometimes, even if we're conscious of doing it. That's just being human.

You an have perfectly reasonable discussions with some people, especially focused on specific aspects, certainty and practical consequences but that can still be frustrating when you hit the barrier of faith and is unlikely to shift that from the people you're discussing with. These discussions can influence all of our overall approach to things and other people reading threads is a different matter too, which is why they can still be worth while.

 

[F1fan]

Really! I've never heard one. Maybe I missed that year of physics.

Given your many posts about your religious beliefs you've missed and ignored a lot of science. That is poor judgment, and it's on you.

Life is a miracle. Consciousness is a miracle. Some very young children understand their condition and show bravery that is greater than any ever shown on a battlefield.

Life is quite prevalent on this planet. A miracle? Not really. Consciousness a miracle? No, it's just a property of some living brains.

And children don't understand why they are suffering. You trying to smooth over the fact that children suffer from cancers and defects and avoid accountability of your God shows an insincere and evasive faith. You've adopted a religious framework that has to ignore the suffering of the innocent because it is one that has to sell many promises to get people to join and believe. The requirement is you can't think too much. We atheists offer you the paradox and dilemmas of your faith that believers can't face for themselves.

There are no experiments showing a gradual change in species caused by "survival of the fittest".

False. You are showing your grave limitation in science knowledge. That is your fault, not a valid claim.

Even if good methodology were used (it wasn't) there is no certainty that theory is correct. "Theory" is the best explanation of experiment derived from proper methodology.

Get your science right, and then you will see your own mistakes in these bad claims. As I recall you are a creationist, and that is toxic religious dogma.

 

[sayak83]

Do you believe it's possible the consciousness and reality, between mathematics and reality, and between "God" and logic?

Might there be a direct relationship that's invisible from where we sit?

I think maybe a few words are missing from the first sentence as I don't quite understand the question.

 

[PureX]

Positive to whom and in what context according to which standards?

Don't you think people should decide that for themselves? Or do you think you should be deciding it for them? Do you think all those billions of people are lying when they claim that their faith in their God has helped them to live better and more positive lives? Or do you think that they're just too stupid to know this, and that you, being far more intelligent and ethical than they, should determine the real value of faith in their lives?

 

[F1fan]

Some do. I am one.

God is the relationship between mind and matter.

Minds are functions of living, material brains. So what is the nature of this relationship you claim? Provide facts, and the science that backs you up.

Therefore an individual either denies that God exists or they admit that there is more to reality than space, time and object.

Well you haven't demonstrated any actual relationship exists as you assert. Nor do you explain what "more to reality" you are referring to. Note that uncertainties about what is true does not mean we default to any of the many religious claims of a God existing.

God, being beyond space, time and object can be mathematically and logically proven.

If God is beyond space and time then how can any of us know it exists, exact through mental gymnastics that require loads of assumptions?

I am one of the only people in the world capable of this feat. Hence my motivation to mathematically prove what every being instictually knows.

Get to work because you've only succeeded in making a lot of overly confident claims, no facts or coherent explanations.

 

[Revoltingest]

I see many posers striving to be the most arrogant & ignorant.
Stand down!
I am the master of ignorance & arrogance on RF.

Believers are deluded.
Atheists rule.
I have spoken.

 

[F1fan]

Don't you think people should decide that for themselves? Or do you think you should be deciding it for them? Do you think all those billions of people are lying when they claim that their faith in their God has helped them to live better and more positive lives? Or do you think that they're just too stupid to know this, and that you, being far more intelligent and ethical than they, should determine the real value of faith in their lives?

Most theists believe without any idea why they believe at all. It's largely a subconscious activity that projects onto consciousness. The mystery many theists claim is part of their beliefs is their confusion why they believe in irrational al ideas that their rational mind conflicts with. That inner turmoil and conflict has too be reconciled, and that is achieve ed with adoption the mantra of "mystery".

 

[sun rise]

Most theists believe without any idea why they believe at all. It's largely a subconscious activity that projects onto consciousness. The mystery many theists claim is part of their beliefs is their confusion why they believe in irrational al ideas that their rational mind conflicts with. That inner turmoil and conflict has too be reconciled, and that is achieve ed with adoption the mantra of "mystery".

Your use of "many" is accurate. Many are as you describe. But not all. A fair discussion is between well-informed atheists (because there's the other kind as well) and well-informed theists. Otherwise we have what I've seen as intellectual mud slinging.

 

[PureX]

Most theists believe without any idea why they believe at all. It's largely a subconscious activity that projects onto consciousness. The mystery many theists claim is part of their beliefs is their confusion why they believe in irrational al ideas that their rational mind conflicts with. That inner turmoil and conflict has too be reconciled, and that is achieve ed with adoption the mantra of "mystery".

There is some of that, but there is also the very real mystery of the meaning and purpose of one's existence. It's difficult for people to know what to do with their lives when they don't know why they are alive at all. Our brains function in such way that we are driven to ask questions that we cannot answer. It's a part of who we are, and what we are, and how we are. The idea of "God" helps us to resolve that mystery for ourselves. And that helps a lot of people to live better (more meaningful and purposeful) lives.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I have found that I am getting frustrated at the thought of people who do not listen to reason, logic, evidence, and facts.

I get it, and I am with you.

And it isn't that I am frustrated, at all, that people have views other than my own. That happens all the time, and on some occasions, their information, or the basis for why they have those views, turns out to be better than my own!

The frustration comes when, as you stated, people won't accept reasonable presentations of evidence that demostrate NOT that they are "wrong" by any means - but that their reasons for accepting the information or holding the view they are holding are just plain terrible, or that they should very reasonably doubt those pieces of information or the source that they are citing. That their evidence is scant, and that you may even have various pieces of factual, real-world information that fly in the face of their pronouncements of things they hold as "true." There's where the real frustration comes from. And most often, the person holding these unreasonable views, or using unreasonable justification for holding the views wants to instead paint you as just an intolerant bigot, who just can't stand that people hold views contrary to your own. It just isn't the case. It is exasperation in the face of people who just SHOULD NOT BE CLAIMING TO KNOW what they are claiming to know.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

There is no one more condescending than a scientist who thinks he knows everything except for those who don't really understand what he is saying or lack even a 4th grade understanding of how and why science works.

I don't know man... seems to me like you're being pretty condescending yourself within this thread, seem to think you, personally, have all the answers and that others are completely wrong, etc. You trying to give "Scientists" a run for their money? Don't want to see these know-it-all scientists have a monopoly on "knowing" it all? That's, at least, what I am getting from your posts. Haha... what a crock.

 

[cladking]

Sorry bud, thats not how science works. It is a learning process, thst learning evolves as new knowledge is acquired.

Science is no more linear than any biological niche. Few people seem to understand this;

Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions - outline

Science changes one funeral at a time.

And the last paragraph is something of a straw man i think. Newtons documentation exists.

Every man is a product of his time and place. Newton thought differently than you.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Comparing Christianity to Nazis?

No. Illustrating how beliefs matter, because they inform actions, and thus why one should care about what fellow citizens believe about stuff.

But it doesn't surprise me at all that you managed to miss the obvious like that.

That also has nothing to do with this discussion

It has EVERYTHING to do with it, since the topic of this sub-conversation is "why care what other people believe?". And the answer to that is "because beliefs inform actions".

Regardless of what the beliefs in question are. They matter, because they inform actions.

, the question is whether someone believing in God's existence somehow should matter to the atheist. Why would it?

For the 5th time: because beliefs inform actions.

How many times must it be repeated?

Again, overall religion makes people happier and more fulfilled

Yes, the "mujahedeen" from ISIS in the self-proclaimed Syrian caliphate also felt "happier and more fulfilled".
So? Does that make it good? Is it relevant at all?

And they generally don't drink as much.

Neither do I. In fact, I'm not aware of there being any kind of connection.
Many muslims even drink and their religion, unlike most brands of christianity, explicitly forbids it.
So no idea what you are on about.

And on average give more to charity.

You determined this, how exactly?
Bill Gates is arguably one of the biggest philantropists in the world. I don't think there is anyone who gave away more money then he did to charities. He's an atheist. So what?
None of this has any relevance to my answer to your question.

Let me remind you...

You asked "why do you care what people believe".
My answer was "because beliefs inform actions".

Sure, for some people their religious beliefs inform their action to donate.
Their religious beliefs also inform their actions to engage in extremely asocial behavior by discriminating, even demonizing, gay people and non-believers.

You are a great example of that last one, btw.

And they are more likely to be an involved citizen and vote. These all sound like positives, so why would you care about people believing in a higher power?

Cherry picking positives while ignoring the horrible bits is not honest.

Are religious people happier, healthier? Our new global study explores this question

It matters not.
ISIS scum living in the Syrian caliphate were also happier then when they lived in secular democracies.
So does that mean that you will support them and their caliphate?
After all, they are happier that way, right? And you seem to think that that makes it a valid argument.

Wait, don't tell me you are holding on to a double standard???
That would be SOOOO unexpected!!!