Fulfilling the Law

[CMike]

A person who gives and wants nothing in return gives far more than a person who wants to receive something back.

"The wicked borrow and do not repay,
but the righteous give generously;" (Psalm 37:2)

That's true. However, it's still better to give, rather than not give, regardless of intention.

In this week's Torah Portion it says in Exodus "we will do and we will listen (understand)".

Doing comes first. Doing is more important than understanding.

 

[Benoni]

Makes no sense to me either.

You mean he wasn't perfect to begin with?

Oh He is. But His dealings with man are always progressive.

 

[Tarheeler]

Because God is a progressive God and His seconds are always greater than his first.

Does that mean that you believe that Judaism is less that Christianity, Christianity less than Islam, and Islam less than Baha'i?

 

[dantech]

Jesus was Jewish. Jesus’s audience was Jewish. The writers of the canonical Gospels were Jewish. Jewish scripture was used as a point of reference for the canonical Gospels. According to the canonical Gospels, Jesus stressed to his Jewish audience they are to observe the commandments. But how do Gentiles fit into the equation? The answer must be found within Jewish scripture. To the best of my knowledge Gentiles are not required to convert to Judaism. But then again, what do I know? I’m just some heretic Christian, LOL

Please re-read my post and realize that I said that Thana had said "The Torah doesn't apply to us, Christians.", that I would leave it at that.

We agree 100%. But to say that it has become irrelevant implies that it once was indeed relevant. If it was once relevant to Christians, then there is absolutely no reason or scriptural evidence to show that it no longer is. If it never was relevant to Christianity, then we are on the same page.

 

[dantech]

Does that mean that you believe that Judaism is less that Christianity, Christianity less than Islam, and Islam less than Baha'i?

Good question. Watch them weasel themselves out with a very logical argument.

 

[Benoni]

Does that mean that you believe that Judaism is less that Christianity, Christianity less than Islam, and Islam less than Baha'i?

No. I did not know God spoke only to the jews. I thought there were 12 tribes.

 

[dantech]

Does that mean that you believe that Judaism is less that Christianity, Christianity less than Islam, and Islam less than Baha'i?

Good question. Watch them weasel themselves out with a very logical argument.

No. I did not know God spoke only to the jews. I thought there were 12 tribes.

See what I mean?

 

[Benoni]

See what I mean?

You attack me with your sarcasm, you get the same back.

 

[dantech]

You attack me with your sarcasm, you get the same back.

The thing is, you weren't replying to me. You were replying to Tarheeler.
And Tarheeler's question actually suggested the exact opposite of what you were implying.

He was saying that if God's seconds are always better than his firsts, and that his interaction with humans is progressive, then is Islam better than Christianity? By your logic, it is. And Bahai is better than Islam. This all comes from your own logic.

 

[Benoni]

The thing is, you weren't replying to me. You were replying to Tarheeler.
And Tarheeler's question actually suggested the exact opposite of what you were implying.

He was saying that if God's seconds are always better than his firsts, and that his interaction with humans is progressive, then is Islam better than Christianity? By your logic, it is. And Bahai is better than Islam. This all comes from your own logic.

It comes down to what God's Word says. If you want to rely on logic. Than you never understand what God is doing in His Word.

 

[dantech]

It comes down to what God's Word says. If you want to rely on logic. Than you never understand what God is doing in His Word.

Why are you contradicting yourself, non-stop?
If it comes down to God's word, then prove yourself with scripture.

If it doesn't, then stop hiding behind those pathetic attempts at debating "logically"

 

[Tarheeler]

No. I did not know God spoke only to the jews. I thought there were 12 tribes.

I fail to see how that addresses my question. If a religion is better than the one that preceded it, then Baha'i is better than Islam, which is better than Christianity, which is better than Judaism. Correct?

 

[dantech]

I faith to see how that addresses my question. If a religion is better than the one that preceded it, then Baha'i is better than Islam, which is better than Christianity, which is better than Judaism. Correct?

You question is way to straightforward and logical for him to answer.

 

[CMike]

It comes down to what God's Word says. If you want to rely on logic. Than you never understand what God is doing in His Word.

I do agree that your position is highly illogical.

 

[Pegg]

Yes. Context is king. If you read Daniel's whole prayer there, you will see that he first offers prayers of repentance, then requests G-d's mercy on Jerusalem, the Temple and Israel. So the answer that he received is going to be about Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple.

I just thought it was strange that a jew would see that prophecy of Daniel as applying to the destruction of the 2nd temple Jesus himself also applied Daniels prophecy to the destruction of the temple

See Matthew 24:15*“Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16*then let those in Ju·de′a begin fleeing to the mountains.

And what strikes me as odd is that Daniel refers to the time of the Messiah. He says that the Messiah would be 'cut off' (a hebrew scripture expression meaning killed) from his people and this would cause the 'sacrifices to cease'

Dan 9:26*“And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·si′ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.
“And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27*“And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease


After the destruction of 70CE, the temple and priesthood were destroyed, sacrifices ceased, and has remained that way until this day. But what came before the destruction of the temple and its sacrifices was the killing of the Messiah.

So if you believe Daniels prophecy was referring to the destruction of the temple, then who was the Messiah at that time who got 'cut off' before the temple was ruined??? Because its all part of the same prophecy.

 

[Dinner123]

In Judaism when we speak about the act of performance of a positive commandment, we say "קיום המצוה" - "establishing the commandment." Not performing a positive commandment is called, "ביטול מצוה" - "abolishing a commandment." This type of phraseology can be found in Talmudic literature.

I've had heard Christians interpret Matthew 5:17 as meaning that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law. Using fulfillment to mean "complete" (which would be a different word in Hebrew). And that now there is no need to adhere to the Laws of the so-called "Old Testament."

I found that this word (#4137) in the Greek is found in three places:

Matthew 5:17 "... I did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill."
Matthew 3:15 "...it is fitting for us to fulfill righteousness..."
Corinthians 1:25 "...that I might fulfill the preaching..."

If you translate this word to its Hebrew counterpart, then all three of these verses are speaking about the performance of some duty. Matthew 3:15 and 5:17 are speaking about fulfilling the Law or righteousness the same way I fulfill the Law by performing its requirements. Corinthians is speaking about fulfilling a duty of preaching, by performing the act of preaching.

Yes, Jesus obeyed the Law while He was here. The new Covenant doesn't come except by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ the Light of the world. Spoken of Since Genesis 1:3 Jesus is the Light of the world the Messiah. The Law was given and the prophets were given to witness to the coming Light so that all would have hope in the darkness of this world. What a honour for the people the Jews to be a guardian of this knowledge of Light in the world the Law that spoke of the true Light. But when the Light is come indeed and day has dawned in the world then the purpose of the Law is almost ready to be accomplished. For the Law was given as a regent until the time that the King would ascend unto His throne. The King ascends unto His throne when you receive the Spirit of the King into your heart and He enters the heart and reigns there in and for whoever is submitting to the King, the Regent has finished His work for them. The Regent ever testified that the King would come and we should all heed His witness, and the witness of His true prophets. For even Moses said there would come a prophet after him, like him and the people must heed this prophet. The people were to frightened to hear God from heaven at that time. So God in mercy appointed that they should hear through Moses UNTIL the coming of the One who the Spirit would rest upon without measure and this coming One(The Messiah and Light of the world) would be God Himself veiled in human flesh. The Light that was in Him is the life of men. And, God is Light in Him is no darkness at all. God testified from the beginning that He would come in the flesh a Light unto the world.

No other has fulfilled what Jesus has fulfilled to show themselves the true Light of the world.

1. He was born in Bethlehem as the Word reveals.
2. He was a great Light in Galilee as the Word reveals.
3. He came from Egypt as the scripture reveals the Son of God must do.
4. He was the suffering servant as Isa. 53 reveals. No other so called Messiah has done this. They all want to be the reigning King, but they don't want to go through the pain of the cross. Jesus is the true Shepherd that gives His life for the flock. Not as fake shepherds who would only rule and reign and never suffer. But, even Joseph was an image of the Messiah in that he suffered first and then reigned.
5. Jesus must die and be free among the dead as described. (Psalm 88)
6. Jesus truly ascended to the right hand as the scriptures reveal the Messiah must
7. Jesus will truly return as described in the clouds of heaven

So, the Law had this problem that was identified by Jeremiah when he spoke of the new Covenant to come. That the Law wasn't actually in the hearts of the people. Because, the nation of Israel was just a physical nation not a spiritual people. Jesus Himself said of some of the most religious, woe unto you because you are like whited sepulchres, outwardly righteous but inwardly full of uncleanness and dead men's bones. So, the Law did not change all of their hearts. And Moses said of the people, would to God that they all had the holy Spirit and were all prophets. But, God would change that when He came and He would send the holy Spirit to make a spiritual and holy people unto Himself. As Joel prophesied, that God would pour out His Spirit from on high. A truly spiritual nation that could please God who is a Spirit. Who would no more worship at old Jerusalem as the Law says to worship there! Jesus said the time would come when the true worshippers would not worship at the Jerusalem Temple. which according to the Law, the people must do so. (Deut 12:5) So, He signified the soon coming of the time when the Law is finished. But, they must worship God in Spirit and in truth. Now, the Jews were called the children of God, but not begotten. Those who are begotten of God must be born again. And this is the holy Spirit that was given to make unto God a truly peculiar people not of this world. This is for Jews first and also for gentiles. It is for the Jews first. And Jesus was Jewish according to the flesh. But God according to the Spirit.

 

[RabbiO]

Daniel ....says that the Messiah would be 'cut off' (a hebrew scripture expression meaning killed)....

Dan 9:26*“... Mes·si′ah will be cut off....,

I usually stay out of the these debates. The two sides, metaphorically, stand on opposite sides of a theological chasm slingling dueling scriptures and opposing interpretations that do little except engender hard feelings.

However, I will interject one comment here, in regard to the translation used.

The Hebrew text reads: יכרת משיח - yecarayt maschiach

As I am sure has come up before, Hebrew has no capital letters. The decision to captialize the translation of maschiach as Messiah, with a capital M, by the translators represents a doctrinal interpolation that is not warranted by the text. Furthermore, the decision to translate, in this instance, the word maschiach as messiah, interposes a particular religious position because the word messiah has become a loaded term.

Since maschiach technically is simply one who is anointed, and several people in the Tanakh are described as such, including King Saul, and because the definite article is missing, an equally plausible, less baggage laden, translation would state that an anointed one will be cut off.

I don't expect you to agree with me. I'm not going to get into an argument over this with you.

Just providing my two shekels.

Peter

 

[Benoni]

Let us notice a few of God's firsts and seconds. God's seconds are always better than His firsts which He gives to mankind. Meditate deeply upon these: Cain - Able; Cain's sacrifice - Able's sacrifice; Ishmael - Isaac; Esau - Jacob; Letter - Spirit; First Covenant - New Covenant; Water baptism - Spirit baptism; First Adam - Second Adam; First earth - New earth; Old man - New creation; Jesus in flesh - Jesus in Spirit. The New Testament presents a more glorious message than the Old; the last Adam redeems what the first Adam lost; the message of God's grace unfolded in the New Testament far excels the Law of the Old. The second is greater than the first. It always is when God takes and gives. As someone has written, "In His great wisdom our God has arranged many things in pairs, or shall we say, by contrasting twos. Some of the 'firsts' may seem to be very good, and for a time quite acceptable, but in due time they are to be followed by the 'seconds' which are higher, better, and more desirable than the firsts. Perfection is found in God's seconds. Often the firsts are but a type and a shadow of the reality which is later to be found in the seconds. In the former we find the negative realm working out its purpose, and in the latter there is the glorious positive fulfilling its sphere. The more one ponders each fragment of truth revealed, the more they yearn to leave behind the realm of imperfection, fragmentary, and enter into the freedom of the Spirit of Life in fullness" -end quote.

The first is of the earth earthy - the second is of God from heaven. And that is an epitome of the whole process of salvation, both for the individual and for the creation. He taketh away the outward that He may establish the inward, the seen that He may establish the unseen, the material that He may establish the spiritual. Israel had a religion that appealed to the senses. It was to some extent spectacular. Its tendency was temporal and local. It was a religion of times and places. The believing heart could not cling to it and at the same time enter into the timeless and universal gospel of Jesus Christ. And so the vision of the eyes had to go that the vision of the heart might grow clearer. The vision of Jerusalem of Judaea had to fade that the child of God, born now from above, might see the New Jerusalem, the City of God, coming down from heaven - a city ever being built of lives transformed by heaven's life into the radiance of God's glory on earth.

 

[Pegg]

I usually stay out of the these debates. The two sides, metaphorically, stand on opposite sides of a theological chasm slingling dueling scriptures and opposing interpretations that do little except engender hard feelings.

However, I will interject one comment here, in regard to the translation used.

The Hebrew text reads: יכרת משיח - yecarayt maschiach

As I am sure has come up before, Hebrew has no capital letters. The decision to captialize the translation of maschiach as Messiah, with a capital M, by the translators represents a doctrinal interpolation that is not warranted by the text. Furthermore, the decision to translate, in this instance, the word maschiach as messiah, interposes a particular religious position because the word messiah has become a loaded term.

Since maschiach technically is simply one who is anointed, and several people in the Tanakh are described as such, including King Saul, and because the definite article is missing, an equally plausible, less baggage laden, translation would state that an anointed one will be cut off.

I don't expect you to agree with me. I'm not going to get into an argument over this with you.

Just providing my two shekels.

Peter

thankyou Peter, i do agree with what you've stated. It certainly is the translators who add a capital M to messiah in this verse....and that is because they see the verse a reference to 'the' messiah, and not simply any other messiah/annointed one.
So yes, no argument from me on that point.

May i ask if you have any ideas as to who the anointed one was at the time before the temple was destroyed in 70CE? Were there any other historical anointed ones who fit the bill??

 

[nazz]

In Judaism when we speak about the act of performance of a positive commandment, we say "קיום המצוה" - "establishing the commandment." Not performing a positive commandment is called, "ביטול מצוה" - "abolishing a commandment." This type of phraseology can be found in Talmudic literature.

I've had heard Christians interpret Matthew 5:17 as meaning that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law. Using fulfillment to mean "complete" (which would be a different word in Hebrew). And that now there is no need to adhere to the Laws of the so-called "Old Testament."

I found that this word (#4137) in the Greek is found in three places:

Matthew 5:17 "... I did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill."
Matthew 3:15 "...it is fitting for us to fulfill righteousness..."
Corinthians 1:25 "...that I might fulfill the preaching..."

If you translate this word to its Hebrew counterpart, then all three of these verses are speaking about the performance of some duty. Matthew 3:15 and 5:17 are speaking about fulfilling the Law or righteousness the same way I fulfill the Law by performing its requirements. Corinthians is speaking about fulfilling a duty of preaching, by performing the act of preaching.

That's rather a unique take on the meaning of Mt. 5:17, one I've not heard before. I'm not quite buying it though. If by "abolish" Jesus means to say "not to perform" a positive commandment then what about the negative ones? And why should Jesus single himself out as the one who fulfills the Torah's mitzvot? That's incumbent on all Jews. Such an interpretation comes close to supporting the Christian view that only Jesus was able to keep the Law perfectly.

I believe the most logical interpretation follows the meaning of the Greek word translated as "fulfill":

πληρόω


Transliteration
plēroō
Pronunciation
plā-ro'-ō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From πλήρης (G4134)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 6:286,867

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
   1. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
      1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
2. to render full, i.e. to complete
   1. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
   2. to consummate: a number
      1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
      2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
   3. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
      1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
      2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
      3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment