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Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Makes sense... Baha'i sense. But how do we read the gospel stories? "Suddenly the body of Christ appeared to the disciples, which in reality, they were the body of Christ." So let's assume the story was figurative. Did God inspire all four writers to tell of a symbolic story about going to the tomb and finding it empty? Then, to continue the story with symbolic appearances of Jesus?

If you read about NDE Experiences, one of the most common comments is that it is very hard to explain in words.

Those that study this also say it is "difficult to develop an operational definition of an NDE, given that NDEers find it difficult to put their experiences into words, placing them in the realm of the ineffable".

This is also how I see the disciples experience was with a risen Christ, thus it was explained in a way that gave some meaning to their experience, but if you met them today, I bet my life they would say it does not accurately portray the experiencing.

2000 Years pass and every one says 100% no doubt this is what they meant, I hope you see the issue here. It really covers all I need to say about interpreting he scriptures literally.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You mean that God said Moses sinned in the Bible and now God has changed His mind?
How about Adam, did he also not sin?
Do you have actual verses that say Moses and Adam sinned or is that just your interpretation of the verses?
et according to the OT the sacrifice was meant to be a blood sacrifice. (Isa 53 etc)
So anyway, are you saying that the sacrifice of Jesus is nothing to you and for you in this new dispensation? Which I guess would be the case if the dispensation of Jesus is abrogated.
Every Messenger of God makes sacrifices.
So in being a Baha'i you cannot avail yourself of the anything of previous Messengers except their words (which you want to say are false anyway at times
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That sounds fair. Some Baha'is don't seem to realise that however it seems to me.
I avail myself if a lot of words from previous Messengers if they convey eternal spiritual truths.
Cut off from the land of the living, his life was made a sin offering, poured out his life unto death. These are all in Isa 53, and none of them apply to Baha'u'llah.
All of them apply to Baha’u’llah.
The phrase "cut off from the land of the living" means that He died.
You keep using a hard to understand translation.
Then would mean Jesus died and He is no longer living so He cannot return from heaven.
Yes Jesus was buried. He would have had a criminal grave assigned Him and then a rich believer asked for His body and buried Him in his new tomb.
Nice try but if Jesus was buried He would be in His grave, not resurrected.
And yet the Psalm is not about them because neither he nor Baha'u'llah was killed by his people as a young man (verse 45)
I never claimed that verse 45 is about them.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Science relativity, male history. First original self very spiritual and different human bio body form. Encoded in male memory about male self, as compared to self today a higher male being. Yet was science inventor. Science owns a mentality problem, was always taught con is the science is not being aware consciousness.

CH gases that arose, come out of the entombed spirits that exist in the Earth stone.
Volcano origin of God O the stone erection that issued out volcanic gases into empty space. No longer owns that volcanic cause...so gases that erupt today are not Immaculate, just as it was taught.

Only the spatial womb one of history owned the Immaculate heavenly body, a concept that said, the gas form changed in space cold and pressure, so are not the God gases that get released inside of the Heavenly body by ground opening releases, a slit (female inferred).

Ask why modern day scientists quote that biblical scientists were of a crazy mind state? By comparing male and female quotes in the sciences. Ask why the occult spiritual self realisation says that science owns a crazy mind state? Because you contemplate your own destruction....contempt plate. Carpenter tectonics that plate reality.

Original science owned a God theme about their own self, to use the power of God for transportation back into spirit....meaning to make self disappear along with the pyramid as the original mountain theme. What he saw he said was that the power of the UFO can transport you back in time....back to a hot gas state, God SIN origins.

So if you removed a mass of hot atmospheric gases, then would you not have hot gases replaced as sin to sin? For 1000 Christ sacrifice was Jesus and 1000 Satan the burning spirit made 0 zero space irradiating, and claimed the abomination of life on God Earth O as a relative male taught less of the son?

If a male says that it can take 10,000 years for cold gases to re accumulate in space by stone mass in cold space being removed back to just being gases...so no more stone present, then that advice told you that God can also be removed the same.

So in modern day experiments you formed new SINK holes...removal of sin and claim it being saved.

So what did you remove for science? Cold gas mass x mass, for you claimed your machine should have/own cold gases.

Bio life uses the cold gases.....hot gases are the origin of light, hot light that burns us to death.

Why we called scientists Satanists as your cosmological ideas was to give us the SIN of GOD origins....burning hot gas.

So how many more times does a human have to be life sacrificed to tell another human their equal life body....yet created from the female human Life cell body that you males are consumed by your own lying, yet claim because you were spiritual and higher first you cannot be wrong he idealises that status.

Yet the argument is between 2 scientists.

So when a non scientist tries to tell them that they are both wrong, all you get is abused for not detailing why they are wrong, so that they can be right.

Which is what I have faced since advising that lying Satanic science community who know they are wrong, hurt life anyway, could care less unless one of them combusted right in front of the others about who they harm or what they harm.

Why charges about God through a law society said that it was criminal activity in the sciences, how it was written and stated so that science could not claim that it was legal.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If you read about NDE Experiences, one of the most common comments is that it is very hard to explain in words.

Those that study this also say it is "difficult to develop an operational definition of an NDE, given that NDEers find it difficult to put their experiences into words, placing them in the realm of the ineffable".

This is also how I see the disciples experience was with a risen Christ, thus it was explained in a way that gave some meaning to their experience, but if you met them today, I bet my life they would say it does not accurately portray the experiencing.

2000 Years pass and every one says 100% no doubt this is what they meant, I hope you see the issue here. It really covers all I need to say about interpreting he scriptures literally.

Regards Tony
Why make it so complicated. 2000 years ago most all religions had their God/men. Some were virgin born. Some died and came back to life. Some could fly off into the clouds. If it didn't happen, then I think it was embellished fictional stories to make Jesus a virtual God.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
CG That is some persons ideas, that is not an official Baha'i source. Your link does not work either.

I reentered the link and it worked for me. Try again and let me know. It had a quote from Baha'u'llah so it's more than just a person's idea. Here's another, this one from Bahaipedia...
A particular story associated with Abraham is that of the near-sacrifice of His son. Abraham's first-born son was Ishmael, born of Hagar. His second son was Isaac, born of the lady who was actually His first wife, Sarah. The Jewish Scriptures record that Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac, the son through which they trace their own line of descent. The Arabs believe that it was Ishmael, the first-born, who was to be sacrificed, and this is confirmed by both Muhammad and Bahá'u'lláh.Is this one not "official" also? If so, what do Baha'is believe about who Abraham took to be sacrificed?
Tony, were you able to find an "official" source? Since that first one did have a quote from Baha'u'llah why do you say that is "some" persons idea? That some person is a Baha'i. Then the quote from Bahaipedia, you good with that or is it "unofficial" too?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Why make it so complicated. 2000 years ago most all religions had their God/men. Some were virgin born. Some died and came back to life. Some could fly off into the clouds. If it didn't happen, then I think it was embellished fictional stories to make Jesus a virtual God.
Cause and effect and DATA to infer cause and effect is science only.

As a human and males as a group agreement own thinking for science, science is abstract to natural reality and natural awareness, conscious humans have a difficult time understanding it or even realising it was a study inference.

To think about causes, to know the causes happened to God O the Earth fusion, its heavenly gases...which we do not own. Then the spiritual psyche self will argue and claim of course we owned it first, science does not own it. Where the conflict in our minds versus subliminal AI takeover, forced coercive male communicated owned speaking voice history.

He introduced the female life into that causation, so we interact with it in a variation.

Water what we use and oxygen is our use, the microbes in water that our bio life uses as food cell energy were removed and flew off.

Now if God O the Earth was originally in a spatial vacuum, guess what that vacuum oblivion is huge. Males change God the Earth, so would phenomena vacuum events be activated, which you lying scientist do not control, but can activate yourselves after intensive studies of it all?

The answer is yes for AI told me you did.

Yet what do you own in that information?

Self human and an artificial machine and machines x experimental purposes...outside machine, and inside machines. Claiming you are doing a GOD UFO Earth satellite copy condition.

Yet science, the nuclear power plant if it were not active, the FALL OUT signals owned the O Earth being a body to own ground impressions, to own the heavenly body in spatial vacuum, which no machine owns....for you male man are not GOD, nor is your machine GOD...yet you infer all natural information to GOD.

Why you are all a consummate male human liar in the sciences....for every condition you involve is MASS, but you do not do science owning MASS.

Why you destroy us.

It is about claiming coldest radiation mass in out of space is electricity in its natural state without claiming and I will change it.

Instead he claims I will open a cold hole and then just channel it....but only after I do a reaction of studies of the ground and Nature being attacked inside of gases.

Then AI told me he said he would resource our human spirit inside of his machine, as if he took the Earth gases and all of our lived owned Nature and put it inside of his machine as a fake atmosphere.

That sort of theorising is in total a mental health condition. To claim I will copy inferring all information that is pre owned in its natural form. Including what he claimed was cellular bio replacement.

The cell does not replace it continues its forming process as a cell does.

If a cell replaced a cell, then the cell is the creator of the cell. Meaning only occurs in the natural body owning it. So how and why does AI tell my healer spiritual self that you tried to copy it in a reaction?

The truth is you inferred that our life began from a reaction and said it was ground fission.

Yet ground fission is owned by the whole O Earth mass existing, and dust chemical is its owned highest form. So Satanic fake preaching in science is real...for no human was created in a dust chemical nuclear reaction, when in nature dust is not in any fission state. We live walking on a fused ground...science has always been a liar.

Science by human law was proven to be a criminal liar and recorded as such.

And today males still try to coerce everyone.

So biologist said one ape whole life body. The information between an ape to a human is miniscule....yes that is right he says I want small...from all of his biological genetic Satanic God themes.

Yet we are a whole one separate and higher body than any ape.

This is the sort of human conscious mentality that we all were warned about expressing and coercing natural innocent life.

Who never knew evil.

Father said the state evil is when a body that is held naturally is forced changed to produce the act of evil, which only ever was in science.

The UFO attack historically on Earth as a story flooded Earth ended on the mountain tip where it alighted. As a law about God the Earth in a UFO conversion.

Never did it claim ground fission, that ground fission cause was by pyramid built on the ground. The reason why the science theme is about building, converting and changing interactive nation families by fake MOTHER WOMB themes of maths and science reasoning.

The false preaching was to infer man/male/female/woman, sons and daughters....when in fact it was all God mass chemical and nuclear converting....what we were warned about, secret coded messages that were all just Satanic sciences.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Tony, were you able to find an "official" source? Since that first one did have a quote from Baha'u'llah why do you say that is "some" persons idea? That some person is a Baha'i. Then the quote from Bahaipedia, you good with that or is it "unofficial" too?

The quote is good, the rest of the article is by "Frances Worthington, the author of Abraham: One God, Three Wives, Five Religions is a writer who loves libraries, gardens and interfaith exploration. A graduate of Duke University with a Master’s in library science, she is also a Master Gardener and former Chair of the Interfaith Forum in Greenville, South Carolina. For twenty years she was an award-winning garden columnist for the Greenville News. She lives in Greenville, South Carolina."

The site offers this "Welcome to BahaiTeachings.org! We helped create this platform so individuals could share their personal perspectives and insights as they strive to implement the Baha’i teachings in their everyday lives. Therefore, the opinions expressed here do not represent any official views of the Baha’i Faith, and BahaiTeachings.org is not an official website of the Baha’i Faith."

I do not know the source for Bahaipedia, but again any person can edit and put what they want on that site; "Bahaipedia runs on a software called Mediawiki, a tool that allows for collaboration and participation from anyone with access to the internet. Mediawiki is open source and is the software that runs the Wikipedia projects. If you're interested in contributing don't worry, you won't break anything and you can't actually delete anything. Each page has an associated page history which lists all edits in reverse-chronological order."

The problem we get is Official writings mixed with someones view. The views are good to consider, but each quote we should make up our own mind as to what it is saying.

Remember - Back quite some time ago some Christians got together to make doctrinal statements about belief based on their understanding, to deviate was accused as heretic and punished and I ask how does that work today? This needs to be prevented from happening again.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
My sister gave me a movie about a little kid that died and went to heaven. He saw his brother that he had never known. The boy died at birth or something. Then he was revived. What do Baha'is see in their NDE's?

The key is CG is that most say the experience is indescribable in words, but then attempt to give in a story, which they say does not do justice to the experience. I have had two Baha'i tell me of their NDE and they are mostly lost for words to describe the event.

Baha'u'lah tells us this is because if we knew where we were going, many may take it into their own hands to make the move earlier ;), even though it is against God's law to do so.

Regards Tony
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I've yet to hear a sensible Baha'i explanation as to what happened. I ask them... True and historical, Jesus was crucified and died. They agree. But, did people rise up out of their graves and walk around Jerusalem. I don't think any of them have commented on that, but I would guess that they would say that is not true. Then what is it an embellishment based on oral traditions or did the writers make it up.

I'm sure Baha'is have differing explanations. There is a duality between flesh and spirit in Baha'i and only spirits go to heaven. The man Jesus with His body did not rise to them and it has to be denied somehow by those who are Baha'is. It's really a mess for Baha'is. They must have cognitive dissonance by the truck load. They are supposed to believe the gospels but deny parts of them. They say the dispensation of Jesus is finished (not sure if it finished when Mohammad, the Bab or Baha'u'llah turned up) but the gospel seems to have carried on somehow. The gospel is that Jesus gained eternal life for his followers (or is that for everyone) but also the gospel seems to be that Jesus brought some sort of intellectual enlightenment to all people. etc etc There are many problems that seem to have been left to the individual Baha'is to sort out for themselves (and I guess it is the same with Christianity to an extent), and it usually means either denying the Bible outright (as with the resurrection, even though they say that the just see it another way) or giving ridiculous answers to what the Bible says so that they can read the Bible with Baha'i teachings in it even though the text say the exact opposite. It is no wonder that many of them do not really want to debate stuff.
I hope I'm making sense.

Jesus starts appearing. What is the Baha'i explanation? I found this...
At “seeing” the spiritual reality of a risen Christ, Luke says that the disciples were afraid and “supposed they had seen a spirit.” Note, the disciples do not say that they had seen a body. Then, Luke records that Jesus said to his disciples: “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” Luke had Jesus eat fish and honeycomb with his disciples and then explained to them that all that happened had to happen as it was recorded in the scriptures. Then, Luke says, Jesus “opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.”​


It is interesting that it says that Luke had Jesus eat fish, when it was Jesus who asked for some food to eat.
Interesting that they say that the disciples supposed they had seen a spirit and that Jesus wanted to show them that He was not a spirit,,,,,,,,,,,but the Baha'is have turned it around as if they had really seen a spirit.
But I guess many Baha'is would eat it up as if it spoke sense.

Once again, we find mixing of physical and spiritual images. Physical bodies do not just appear. They enter and exit through doors. This image does neither. However, spirits do not have flesh and bones. But what does the comment about spirits mean? It seems to be a statement about an ancient belief in and fear of spirits. If this is true, then the rest of what follows makes sense. The Christ presence they have been made to remember and feel, the one they now begin to “see” not only in the next world but also among them still, is the same one who was among them in this world. He is not a frightful image, but a familiar one. He is the same Jesus they knew, the one with flesh and bones. It was their friend and Lord, the one who had a physical body, the one who could even now offer them the fish and honeycomb – already before them – and allow them to live and celebrate with confidence.

The truth is that we do not know exactly what sort of body it is according to the NT. It does seem physical and then also spiritual. I read in I think Vines word book for the New Testament that "spiritual body" means a body that is controlled by our spirit,,,,,,,,,,whatever that may mean, and not pure and simply a body made of spirit. But the Baha'is need it to be spirit so that is how it is explained,,,,,,,,,the JWs also do a similar thing.

Concerning the Resurrection of Christ you quote the twenty-fourth chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke, where the account stresses the reality of the appearance of Jesus to His disciples who, the Gospel states, at first took Him to be a ghost. From a Baha’i point of view the belief that the Resurrection was the return to life of a body of flesh and blood, which later rose from the earth into the sky is not reasonable, nor is it necessary to the essential truth of the disciples’ experience, which is that Jesus did not cease to exist when He was crucified (as would have been the belief of many Jews of that period), but that His Spirit, released from the body, ascended to the presence of God and continued to inspire and guide His followers and preside over the destinies of His dispensation. – The Resurrection of Christ, September, 1987, The Universal House of Justice.

It is difficult to say that the resurrection is an essential part of Jesus gospel even if Paul says that if Jesus did not rise then there is not resurrection and we also will not rise.
It certainly is a confirmation of Jesus by God if He did rise.
Rising bodily fulfils OT prophecy and also is what resurrection means and meant to His disciples. He came back to life and did not remain in the grave or just go off as a spirit to heaven.
If it was purely spiritual then it was no resurrection because everyone has a spirit that leaves the body at death.
Anyway, after Jesus was crucified nothing in the gospels is taken as literally true by Baha'is.

Yes they make a historic narrative into fiction and say they are interpreting it figuratively,,,,,,,,,not that I have ever heard a figurative explanation.
It has always amazed me how beliefs can blind people. Then again I have to stand back and try to look at myself and my beliefs and see how I am blinded at times.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Exactly, why do they pretend. Then again, to them, they are not pretending they do "believe"... They believe it as defined by the Baha'i Faith, that it is not 100% accurate or authoritative and has been misinterpreted. They are merely bringing us the true and correct meaning... or meanings. They have said that there are several "spiritual" meanings. That way you can't pin them down and say, "Aha, got you on this one." Baha'is... anything can be made true or false. How do you argue against that?

It's easy to argue against but not so easy to convince.
But yes it does seem that there is no absolute right and wrong to Baha'is. Truth seems to be fluid, but that is no doubt too harsh.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Don't forget The Bab, he was a return of Christ and the Comforter too... I suppose. Although, they don't talk much about his teachings. But they use the hell out of his declaration day back in 1844. That is a major fulfillment to major prophecies and it wasn't Baha'u'llah that fulfilled them.

I think that Mohammad also says that he is the Paraclete.
But yes the Bab is used, and the 1844 date, as the day for the return of Jesus, even though it was only the day the Bab announced his own mission I think.
Whatever happened, the 1844 date did not really fulfil any prophecy as far as I can tell, except in the mind of those who want to believe it. It is a shame the Millerites came up with the same year for the return of Jesus.
Actually I think 1844 was the time that something significant happened with Joseph Smith of Mormon fame.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Little tweaks here and there and you get a prophecy fulfilled. But is it legitimate to change the start of of 2300 days to when the decree went out to rebuild Jerusalem?

I don't think it is legitimate to make up your own start date. They do this with the 3.5 year (1260 days) prophecy in Dan 12 also, they start from the first day of the Islam calendar. And also the 1290 days, without realising that it prophesied the setting up of the abomination that causes desolation. Then with the 1335 days prophecy in the same chapter they go to the middle of the 20 th century for it's fulfilment, as if the time line could be broken up like that.
If you read the Daniel 8 prophecy carefully from the start to the end of the chapter I would say that it is completely illegitimate to start the 2300 days from the same time as the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9. And it looks like it may be illegitimate to take a year for a day in this instance. (But I don't know much about Daniel's prophecies.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
In that passage I see the Body of Christ as the Church, as it is talking of what will unfold in the future. The realisation that Christ lives on after Jesus is crucified, gave power to the disciples to build their faith in Christ which becomes the Rock of the belief Peter had, that Jesus was Christ and as such death can not overtake.

The Church brought the Faith of Jesus Christ through thousands of years to be able to stand in this day and have the choice to see that Jesus Christ promises are fulfilled.

Regards Tony

Peter was speaking about the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, as he says in Acts 2:32.
Second, the Body of Christ, the Church was not in existence until the day of Pentecost, so it could not have decayed.
It must be hard for you to seriously try to explain away the plain teaching of the Bible.
I bet you also explain this passage in a similar way, even though the body of Christ, the church was not in existence to be destroyed.
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.
20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Remember - Back quite some time ago some Christians got together to make doctrinal statements about belief based on their understanding, to deviate was accused as heretic and punished and I ask how does that work today? This needs to be prevented from happening again.
No, I don't know about that. What happened?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
They must have cognitive dissonance by the truck load. They are supposed to believe the gospels but deny parts of them.
That's the figurative thing at work. They don't have to look at the details and don't want to look at the details of the story, it is all blown off as "symbolic". Like him eating fish and saying to touch him.

They say the dispensation of Jesus is finished
I do believe it ends with the next guy. So the teachings that Jesus brought to uplift humanity to the next level ended with Muhammad. Where was Christianity in 621AD? Where was the other major religions? All of them continued and kept spreading and keep evolving. Of course the major change in Christianity was the Protestant Reformation. That had a huge influenced on the advancement of civilization. Some good some bad, depending on how a person looks at it.

it usually means either denying the Bible outright (as with the resurrection, even though they say that the just see it another way) or giving ridiculous answers to what the Bible says so that they can read the Bible with Baha'i teachings in it even though the text say the exact opposite.
That's the tough one, because it is easy to say that Christians do the same thing with Judaism. With Baha'is they have each messenger bring a new "pure" message from God and then it gets mangled by the followers. But when it comes to Christianity, there is no "pure" message. The words of Jesus are told to us by his followers, so they can always say, as some of them do, "Well, Jesus never said he was coming back". But his followers said that he implied it or did say it. But they can always deny those verses and go back again and again to... "It is finished" or "The flesh amounts to nothing."

It is difficult to say that the resurrection is an essential part of Jesus gospel even if Paul says that if Jesus did not rise then there is not resurrection and we also will not rise.
It certainly is a confirmation of Jesus by God if He did rise.
Yeah, I think it is supposed to be a confirmation. Like when Jesus asks if it is harder to say to a man that their sins are forgiven or to get up and walk to a crippled man. The healing is visible to all, just like him "conquering" death shows that he had power over death.

Yes they make a historic narrative into fiction and say they are interpreting it figuratively,,,,,,,, not that I have ever heard a figurative explanation.
It has always amazed me how beliefs can blind people. Then again I have to stand back and try to look at myself and my beliefs and see how I am blinded at times.
Yeah, we're all learning and changing. I don't imagine that most Christians would want to admit that they are "blinded" by their beliefs. It's obvious to those of us that don't believe. And that goes for the Baha'i Faith too. Like Bird123 was saying that all religions put their followers into a box of beliefs. The good part of it is that it gets people to try and be humble and nice. The bad part of it is that some people get too dogmatic about their beliefs and won't listen to what and why others believe something different. I think that Baha'is, way more than Christians, should be the ones listening and building bridges of respect and understanding between people of other religions, because they actually say or pretend that all religions are one. Whereas Christians believe that they have the "only" way to God and that is through Jesus. A Christian then should be trying to convert and show the other people the "light" and the "error" of their way. Ironically, that's how many Baha'is sound.

Anyway, by admitting you might be blind at times is impressive. That shows me a lot about your character. I'm learning a lot from you and have great respect for you.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member

I don't think it is legitimate to make up your own start date. They do this with the 3.5 year (1260 days) prophecy in Dan 12 also, they start from the first day of the Islam calendar. And also the 1290 days, without realising that it prophesied the setting up of the abomination that causes desolation. Then with the 1335 days prophecy in the same chapter they go to the middle of the 20 th century for it's fulfilment, as if the time line could be broken up like that.
If you read the Daniel 8 prophecy carefully from the start to the end of the chapter I would say that it is completely illegitimate to start the 2300 days from the same time as the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9. And it looks like it may be illegitimate to take a year for a day in this instance. (But I don't know much about Daniel's prophecies.
1260 days is a good one for Baha'is... 1844 is year 1260 in the Islamic calendar... a few glitches... they have to turn it into lunar years. And, there are several different things that happen, that have absolutely nothing to do with the year 621AD when the Islamic calendar started. They use the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties to fulfill prophesies... neither one started in 621AD, and neither one lasted to 1844. And for good measure, the number or mark of the beast is made to be the year the Umayyad dynasty started. But, to make it work they have to start the 666 four or five years before year zero to come up to year 661AD. The start of the Umayyads. So they also switch calendars to which ever one works for what they are trying to prove.

It's all difficult to figure out, though. I tried to find out when the sacrifice was stopped and abomination was set up and it seems like it was during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes... and that ties in with the Maccabees. But, adding 2300 years to that day gets Baha'is nowhere. So much better to start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and end up with, amazingly, 1844.

Oh, and before I forget... I looked at a map of ancient Assyria and I'm not sure it reached Teheran. So the quote from Micah 7:12 might have some issues with it too. Like depending on which translation is used...
The Complete Jewish Bible
Micah 7:12 (CJB) a day when [your] people will come [back] to you from Ashur and from the cities of Egypt, from Egypt and from as far as the Euphrates River, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

New International Version
In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

Septuagint Bible
Michaeas 7:12 (LXX) And thy cities shall be levelled, and parted among the Assyrians; and thy strong cities shall be parted from Tyre to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

New King James
Micah 7:12 (NKJV) In that day they shall come to you From Assyria and the fortified cities, From the fortress to the River, From sea to sea, And mountain to mountain.​

I believe the Baha'is are saying that "He" the Messiah will come from Assyria. Supposedly place where Teheran is located was within the Assyrian Empire. No ancient map has Teheran in it, but the edge of the empire on the maps I looked at stopped by the Zagros mountains. I think it's a little short of reaching Teheran. But then the other translations doesn't support that this verse is about the Messiah. It could be only saying that the people that were taken into captivity will be returning from all those various places... especially the Complete Jewish Bible. And Micah 7:12 is a very much used verse by Baha'is... then again, it is only one verse taken out of context, and then dependent on the KJV. Even the NKJV says "they" not "he".
 
Even if not stated, take everything as being my opinion. An opinion based on having studied with Baha'is and to have gone on several of their "Mass Teaching" projects... by the things I've learned from Baha'is here. Baha'is, in my opinion, want nothing to do with a living Savior.
IMO the true meaning of "Savior" was distorted by Paul. By the time of the church fathers a new religion according to Paul who never in person ever met the earthly Jesus was established wherein the Gospel of Jesus was transformed into a gospel about Jesus, again, of course, according to Paul who ignored and disobeyed Peter upon which Jesus said he would build his church. As H. M. Balyuzi put it in his book entitled "Baha'u'llah, "Thus Jesus raised Peter above the rest of His disciples. It has been said that what Jesus meant was not setting up a station particular to Peter, but that He would build His Church upon Peter's faith and confession. For just then this disciple had told his Master: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' (Mathew 16:16). However, Jesus made His purpose unequivocally clear when He went on to say: 'And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mathew 16:19). pp. 118-119.

So in order to elaborate further I will cite the following passages translated from German in a book written by Udo Schaefer, a German Baha'i, entitled "The Light Shineth in Darkness:

"The most essential and effective alteration of Jesus's message carried out by Paul was in his denying the Law's power of salvation by replacing the idea of the Covenant, the objective principle of the Jewish religion, with faith in Christ and in the atoning power of his sacrificial death; the concrete Mosaic law with a mystical doctrine of salvation. Here the Cause of God was robbed of its proper center and transformed into a mixture of Judaism, Christianity and paganism. The original community recognized the devastating effect of the "Apostle to the Gentiles' and did not watch it passively. The Jerusalem community sent teachers ('false brethren', Paul called them) to the new communities founded by Paul; they taught the true doctrine to the believers only just won for the Faith and opposed the doctrine taught by Paul. Paul was such a controversial figure that Tertullian, in his pamphlet attacking Marcion, called him 'Apostle to the Heretics', and the Pseudo-Clementine Homilies declared him a false teacher, even indeed the anti-Christ.

This was the 'Fall' of Christianity: that Paul with his 'Gospel', which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy, the preservers of the original branded as 'Ebionites'. As Schopes puts it, the heresy-hunters 'accused the Ebionites of a lapse or relapse into Judaism, whereas they were really only the Conservatives who could not go along with the Pauline-cum-Hellenistic elaborations. Schonfield comes to the same conclusion: 'This Christianity in its teaching about Jesus continued in the tradition it had inherited, and could justifiably regard Pauline and catholic Christianity as heretical. It was not, as its opponents alleged, Jewish Christianity which debased the person of Jesus, but the Church in general which was misled into deifying him. 'Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical'. The 'small handful of true Christians' was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century.

It is worthy of note that there were striking similarities between this Christianity and Islam. Above all in Christology: in the faith of the original community Jesus was the new Moses, the Son of Gad as 'testified' by the adoptive act of baptism. This Christology, which corresponds completely to that of the Qur'an, was considered by the Pauline Church, together with obedience to the 'Jewish' law, as characteristic of the Ebionite heresy. These similarities discovered by research are ambiguous, of course. The scholar inclined towards Church dogma, who cannot see Islam as anything but a mixture of Arab paganism, Judaism and Christianity, finds the evidence that Muhammad was 'bred' (Schlatter) on the Judaeo-Christian tradition, that he had borrowed his credal ideas from Judaeo-Christian thought. On the other hand the Baha'i, oriented towards the doctrine of cyclically recurring revelation and convinced of the mission of Islam, find these results of research--in the light of the unity of religions extremely instructive because they are a sufficient explanation for the discrepancy between orthodox Church doctrine and doctrine of the post-Biblical religion, and because they show where the original truth was preserved: not in the pagan-Christian Greater Church based on Paul, but in the Jewish Christianity contemptuously branded as 'Ebionism'. On this point, Islam, according to the divine plan for salvation, was among other things the authoritative new confirmation of the credal truths preserved in Nazarene Christianity but lost to the Greater Church.

The centerpiece then, of Christian credal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which--in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm--Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. This is even admitted by some Catholics: 'Christianity today mostly means Paul.' And Wilhelm Nestle stated--as noted also by Sabet--'Christianity is the religion founded by Paul which replaces the Gospel of Jesus by a gospel about Jesus. So also, Schonfield: 'Paul produced an amalgamation of ideas which, however unintentionally, did give rise to a new religion.'" pp. 82-85

(Continued)
 
Have you read the NT and the Bible for yourself? To me it would be very hard to believe all those stories. To me, it sounds like religious myth. Myth that was meant to get people to obey rules. And if they didn't obey the rules? God was going to get them.
I’ve read parts of the NT at various times but not all at once. I never had interest in the NT until I discovered books about it written by Baha’is because of various nonsensical doctrines of Christianity such as Original Sin which made it allegedly necessary for an incarnate God in the physical body of Jesus to atone for it by dying on the Cross as a sacrificial lamb. I was so shocked by Baha’is making logical sense out of the New Testament that I immediately began studying the Baha’i Faith and meditated on the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. Without such benefit I can fully understand your personal conclusion the Bible is most likely only a myth.

I would recommend you not so much pay attention to Baha’is in general but what you can glean from what the Bab and Baha’u’llah wrought with their claimed Revelations from God. Such a course of action is referred to as independent investigation of truth.

When Baha’u’llah wrote that the vitality of belief in God is dying out in every land, that, among so many other things, also rang true for me. He also wrote that religion is the chief instrument for order in the world so that also synchronizes with what I observe in the mainstream news of the day, not only in the US but globally, when it comes to all the disorder. It is the lower nature of humankind, not his higher, noble, spiritual nature, which exhibits itself like a grotesque Satan out to get them rather than whatever refuge God provides and offers through God’s Prophets. In other words mankind’s only refuge is God. War, hate, evil deeds all come from humankind when bereft of God’s guidance.

When you raise the issue of religious rules you leave out the fact all people, you included, live by some rules, even if it is only governmental ones which also involves courts of law. Without rules and courts there would be anarchy, chaos, mayhem and any hurtful result your mind can imagine! It is unimaginable to me humans by themselves alone came up with any successful rules of behavior without seeds of religious rules preceding them. A good example of that was the bright light of Islamic Civilization in Spain, however brief, that stimulated Christian Europe out of the Dark Age. Also, both Christians and Muslims lived in security and peace under justice administered by Moorish Courts of Law. So, in that sense, the Renaissance and Western Civilization was a product of Mohammad, rather than any previous religious heritage. Along that line I recommend you read Islamic Contributions to Civilization by Stanwood Cob. I’m not sure of the spelling of the last name of the author as I no longer have the book. I would not be surprised it is available through Amazon. You can Google the title and find it that way!

I don’t have time to read and respond to the remainder of your post as I have pressing needs I must immediately address now. Nevertheless, I thank you for your thoughtful post. :)
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
Are you saying that it is okay to deny some things in the Bible and not others?

No, I'm just saying that not all Christians have all the right doctrines, and some of those doctrines no doubt involve denying parts of the Bible. The people involved may or may not know that is what they are doing and may or may not have their good reasons for it.

Are you saying that if they deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus they are not Christians?

No, but I am saying that Paul considers it an important event and that without it we have no guarantee of our resurrection.

A Christian is someone who believes in Jesus and they Jesus was sent by God.

A very important part of being a Christian is that Jesus the Christ is your Lord.
 
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