Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

[cataway]

From the Bible, the Qur'an, and the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

but you dont believe the bible to be true . sooo ,how can i believe you?

 

[Trailblazer]

but you dont believe the bible to be true . sooo ,how can i believe you?

I do believe that the Bible is true....
Please do not listen to others on this thread, they just have opinions based upon their own biases.

 

[Brian2]

I believe I made a mistake in post 847 and it is the Jews who say that God has no Son, even though their own scriptures speak of God's Son.

 

[Brian2]

So now you have decided that the word means "death" which means that no one is commanded to follow laws after he dies. Thanks for the clarification. You are stuck with a textual contradiction and you solve it with an irrelevant piece of unique interpretation. This means that the claims in Heb 13:20 are also until death. So Jesus could not have been resurrected because the "blood of the eternal covenant" was ineffectual once Jesus died and the covenant's "eternal" status disappeared.

It is plain that the slave in Ex 21:6 is speaking about someone who will be a servant for life,,,,,,,,,,not forever even if it says forever.
The word for eternity in Heb 13:20,21 means forever. There is another word (albeit from the same root) which can be translated as forever but also in other ways showing a lesser time. But I am sure I have said this.
To say the 2 words are the same because they have the same root is like saying Christmas and Christian mean the same thing.
If I am stuck with a textual contradiction then so are you. Rashi got around it and so did I. Maybe we are both right, but I figure with the servant of Ex 21:6, he would keep serving even though Jubilee came, because he said that he loves his master and wife and does not want to go free.
I doubt that the Hebrew text anywhere says that the Mosaic Covenant is forever but I think it speaks of some laws being forever.

 

[rosends]

I believe I made a mistake in post 847 and it is the Jews who say that God has no Son, even though their own scriptures speak of God's Son.

Yes, the scriptures do speak of God's sons -- (I am copying this from here)
--------
there are several candidates for the position of "son" :

King Solomon:

I Chronicles 22:9-10

Behold, a son shall be born to you [David],...his name shall be Solomon....He shall build a house for My Name; he shall be a son to Me, and I will be a Father to him, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever.

Angels:

Job 1:6

Now there was a day when the sons of G-d came to present themselves before the L-rd, and Satan also came among them.

King David:

Psalms 2:7

I [David] will tell of the decree of the L-rd: He said to me, You are My son; today I have begotten you."

Israel:

Exodus 4:22

And you shall say to Pharaoh: Thus says the L-rd: "Israel is My son, My firstborn."

Hosea 11:1

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.

 

[rosends]

It is plain that the slave in Ex 21:6 is speaking about someone who will be a servant for life,,,,,,,,,,not forever even if it says forever.

Because you say so, got it.

The word for eternity in Heb 13:20,21 means forever.

well, the Greek word is used in both cases but here you have decided that it means forever. Got it.

There is another word (albeit from the same root) which can be translated as forever but also in other ways showing a lesser time. But I am sure I have said this.

And there are other phrases that qualify that singular word in the Hebrew and show how it means forever in other cases but not in Ex 21, but I'm sure that I said this already.

If I am stuck with a textual contradiction then so are you. Rashi got around it and so did I.

And you got around it by simply saying that the word means something else when you need it to, not looking at other grammatical and linguistic constructs.

I figure with the servant of Ex 21:6, he would keep serving even though Jubilee came, because he said that he loves his master and wife and does not want to go free.

You can figure it all you want but that's not what Jewish law teaches.

I doubt that the Hebrew text anywhere says that the Mosaic Covenant is forever but I think it speaks of some laws being forever.

Feel free. But the Torah is the compilation of laws which form the stipulations of the Mosaic covenant. When the text demands that Jews follow the eternal laws, that is because the covenant endures forever.[/QUOTE]

 

[CG Didymus]

but you dont believe the bible to be true . sooo ,how can i believe you?

Baha'is do "believe" in the Bible. Very similar to the way liberal Christians "believe" in the Bible. Things that don't line up with science are called "superstitious" beliefs. And I'd agree. Who wants to believe in a 6 day Creation that supposedly happened less then 10,000 years ago. Or, that about 6,000 years ago the world was completely flooded. Or that a man came back to life after being dead for three days? Who believes this stuff literally? Well Fundy Christians do. Your beliefs about the Bible probably differ from them. But when you say, "I believe in the Bible".... it is not what a liberal Christian or a Baha'is means.

Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace. We must cast aside such beliefs [superstitions] and investigate reality. That which is found to be real and conformable to reason must be accepted, and whatever science and reason cannot support must be rejected as imitation and not reality.
​

In an article about the Baha'i Faith and the Bible, it says...

The Báb, Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá frequently refer to the Gospels as a 'record' of events, for example: "To this testify the records of the four Gospels"[26] and one might interpret this as meaning a mere historical record. Shoghi Effendi lends weight to this possibility when he writes that "The Bible is not wholly authentic"

"You must know the Old and New Testaments as the Word of God"[24] ('Abdu'l-Bahá)

Bahá'u'lláh contradicts a point of historical detail in the Old Testament when he relates the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Ishmael[28]. Genesis 22:9 says that this son was Isaac.

"When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be...the authentic saying of the Prophet."[34] (written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi)​

At a Christian site comparing the two religions, I found this quote...

With particular regard to the Bible, a letter dated 28 May 1984 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice in response to questions raised by an individual believer outlines two principles to be observed in studying this book. “In studying the Bible Bahá'is must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scripture are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, in not wholly authentic...”

“...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and included the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'is is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'llah and the Master ('Abdu'l-Baha) must be absolutely authentic.​

 

[Brian2]

Except that the start date can clearly be interpreted in different ways. Once again, I'll bring these links:
The L-rd's Anointed - Source Book

The 70 weeks in Daniel 9

I recommend you peruse them.

Thanks I'll try to get back to you with an answer when I get the chance to peruse them.

 

[Muffled]

but why

I believe for some people it takes repetition for them to catch on.

 

[Muffled]

I see there is layers of salvation and in this age it is collective, it is the salvation of Humanity as a whole. Abdul'baha wrote a Tablet of Salvation, it is yet to be translated, there is a section done as a provisional translation and you may like to read it in this blog

Salvation: For One and All

Personally it does not motivate me, as I see it is just the right thing to do, that is live one's life for the good of all. Try to. Find ways to give of yourself to help others, it is a daily challenge we can all participate in.

A prayer CG, that one can choose to offer and I give it for you today.
"O my God, the God of bounty and mercy! Thou art that King by Whose commanding word the whole creation hath been called into being; and Thou art that All-Bountiful One the doings of Whose servants have never hindered Him from showing forth His grace, nor have they frustrated the revelations of His bounty. Suffer this servant, I beseech Thee, to attain unto that which is the cause of his salvation in every world of Thy worlds. Thou art, verily, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. – Baha’u’llah, Baha’i Prayers, p. 146."

Regards Tony

I believe a prayer for salvation will be answered. However it has to be received by faith. If one asks and has no faith it puts a wall up between the person and God.

 

[Muffled]

It is all about the state we choose to be in CG, we have discussed this quite a few times. Heaven and Hell are states of being. We are in those states in this life and when we die that state carries over as we traverse all the world's of God.

So see a rock as the state of hell and Human as Heaven. What would you want to be in this world, a rock or a Human.

If we grow no spiritual limbs here, we become a rock, if we do grow them we carry on with a level of comprehension that will enable us to see more of our next existance.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá has said that when human beings “become illuminated with the radiance of the sun of reality, and ennobled with all the virtues, they esteem this the greatest reward, and they know it to be the true paradise. In the same way they consider that the spiritual punishment…is to be subjected to the world of nature; to be veiled from God; to be brutal and ignorant; to fall into carnal lusts; to be absorbed in animal frailties; to be characterized with dark qualities…these are the greatest punishments and tortures…”

Regards Tony

I believe that is false. Heaven and Hell are places and don't necessarily reflect good and evil of the person. I believe people are not static but change all the time however it is true that after life there is not likely to be any change unless God ordains it.

 

[Brian2]

This is a reply to your post 748, which is a response to my post 746. Sorry I have taken so long to respond.

"may be different"? But the text refers to them as the same Torah, and has already said that the covenant is eternal. So why do you suggest "may be different"?

The New Covenant is eternal yes. The Torah is the full revelation of God's Word to us. That is God's perfect Word.

Well, first off, "maybe"? Next -- non-Jews aren't the ones spoken about in the renewed covenant.

Gen 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
The New Covenant is for the Jews but as Isa 49:6 He says, “It is not enough for you to be My Servant, to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the protected ones of Israel. I will also make you a light for the nations, that you may bring My salvation to the ends of the earth.”
The Word of God was to go out from Jerusalem and your Messiah is responsible for that and for bringing the gentiles to salvation and to God's Word.
Isa 2:3 And many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways so that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

31 explicitly names Israel and Judah (the two nations that split after Solomon's time and are made up of the 13 tribes of the children of Jacob), and God says he will forgive. No person has to get that forgiveness for anyone.

God could have covered and forgiven sin in the time of the Temple without sacrifice also, but sacrifice was there, the shedding of blood of the unblemished lamb, the releasing from captivity and death in the Passover lamb. These parts of the Law point to the sending of the Suffering Servant to bear sins and intercede for us,,,,,,,,,both Jews and Gentiles. Justice is fulfilled also along with the mercy of God.
We can repent, and that is a part of the New Covenant, and a Jew can repent, but that does not gain any more than a covering of sin, just as the Temple sacrifices did. The real sacrifice, the one that God provided, that the Law points to is who gained the forgiveness.
Faith is credited to those in the New Covenant as righteousness. (like with Abraham, the father of those who have faith)

So you want to jump to chapter 23? OK. In that chapter, there is a promise of a future messiah. Nothing about forgiveness. Just a king who will rule (which hasn't happened). So why do you bring this up? To point out more things that Jesus didn't fulfill?

It does point out, by the name that He is given that it is not us who can gain our own righteousness by our deeds. This Messiah has something to do with that.

I don't see any mention in those verses of "saving" of any sort - do you mean the promise that those who invoke the name of God won't be killed in the great war? I do see that everyone will be a prophet, and that there will be war and then Jews will rule. Have you seen any of this happen? Of course, 3 verses later, God specifices that he is talking about his people, Israel, but whatever.

In Joel 2:28-32, about the last days, I think I was pointing out that it is those who call on the name of the LORD who will be saved. It sounds like a salvation through faith to me, not through keeping the Law.
This Joel passage is also seen in the New Testament as being partly fulfilled in Acts 2:16-21, the Pentecost where God's Word and Spirit came to the Jews, and about 3000 of the Jews believed that day (and on the first Pentecost when Moses came down from the mountain about 3000 people died because of their unbelief)

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

(I read that in the Tanakh Joel 2:28-32 is numbered Joel 3:1-5)

No, the whole Torah is the whole Torah. Not a different text or another set of understandings. The whole Torah.

Sure but trying to keep the Law is not the way to righteousness when all it does is highlight how bad you are at keeping it and that you do need the forgiveness and righteousness that God offers.

Obligations are fulfilled by fulfilling them. Nit by claiming they no longer exist.

True it shows faith to fulfil your obligation to keep the Law, for a Jew.
In the New Covenant in the scriptures you reject we are told that love, the nature of God, fulfils the requirements of the Law.
It's a bit like the slave of Ex 21:6 who is freed but still wants to serve because he loves his master and wife and children. Set free from captivity, slavery to the Law to gain righteousness and still serving from the heart, because of love.

Says who? I'm currently still alive. People who claim that one cannot follow the laws and live is ignoring that people do follow the laws and live.

Sure we all live and die but then at the judgement we cannot really (or should I say "should not") be boasting of our righteousness in keeping the Law when all our righteousness is like filthy rags. (Isa 64:6)
We all need God's mercy and the righteousness He offers us.

Sure it is. I can understand the dilemma of Christians who want to deny the authority of the Torah when it suits them and rely on it at other points. I guess that's why so many Jews have refused to change their religion for so long -- they see the foolishness of the pick and choose approach.

I just don't see anywhere in the scriptures which says that the Mosaic Covenant is forever, esp when a New Covenant is promised.
But don't think that the Command that Jesus gave to love one another is a lowering of moral standards, it is raising it to a new high really, a high that goes on to perfection in the end with God's Spirit on our case all the time.

 

[Brian2]

What parts of the Law can't Jews do completely? Even if they did something wrong, there was a sacrifice they could do. So that gets them back with being right with God doesn't it? And even if Jesus did a sacrifice that was once and for all time, Christians keep sinning. So like the Jew, a Christian do things to get back in good standings with God. They have to pray and ask for forgiveness and are supposed to repent. Maybe now, without a Temple, I assume they don't do the sacrifices, but maybe they have an alternative. But to pray, fast and repent are still there for them. What do you think?

Sorry it has taken so long to reply. I'm trying to catch up with posts.
I guess a Jew could do what he wanted in the temple times and just offer sacrifice and say "I have kept the Law and am forgiven". God however told them that it was not sacrifice that He really wanted
Hosea 6: 6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire
but my ears you have opened— burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
7 Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.
8 I desire to do your will,
your law is within my heart.”

It is the same these days with repenting and not really wanting to change.
But of course sacrifice and repentance are good things and can cover up sins for the Jews (as they say) until the true forgiveness comes through the sacrifice of the Messiah. (this is seen to be the one speaking in Ps 40:7,8
Christians also do what is wrong and God forgives because of the sacrifice of Jesus in the New Covenant. It is complete forgiveness and not just a covering of sins for now. But of course God knows sincerity and hypocrisy and does not like the latter.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'is do "believe" in the Bible. Very similar to the way liberal Christians "believe" in the Bible. Things that don't line up with science are called "superstitious" beliefs. And I'd agree. Who wants to believe in a 6 day Creation that supposedly happened less then 10,000 years ago. Or, that about 6,000 years ago the world was completely flooded. Or that a man came back to life after being dead for three days? Who believes this stuff literally? Well Fundy Christians do. Your beliefs about the Bible probably differ from them. But when you say, "I believe in the Bible".... it is not what a liberal Christian or a Baha'is means.

Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace. We must cast aside such beliefs [superstitions] and investigate reality. That which is found to be real and conformable to reason must be accepted, and whatever science and reason cannot support must be rejected as imitation and not reality.
​

In an article about the Baha'i Faith and the Bible, it says...

The Báb, Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá frequently refer to the Gospels as a 'record' of events, for example: "To this testify the records of the four Gospels"[26] and one might interpret this as meaning a mere historical record. Shoghi Effendi lends weight to this possibility when he writes that "The Bible is not wholly authentic"

"You must know the Old and New Testaments as the Word of God"[24] ('Abdu'l-Bahá)

Bahá'u'lláh contradicts a point of historical detail in the Old Testament when he relates the story of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Ishmael[28]. Genesis 22:9 says that this son was Isaac.

"When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be...the authentic saying of the Prophet."[34] (written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi)​

At a Christian site comparing the two religions, I found this quote...

With particular regard to the Bible, a letter dated 28 May 1984 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice in response to questions raised by an individual believer outlines two principles to be observed in studying this book. “In studying the Bible Bahá'is must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scripture are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, in not wholly authentic...”

“...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and included the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'is is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'llah and the Master ('Abdu'l-Baha) must be absolutely authentic.​

Well researched and written again CG.

That would be how I see the Bible, to be as a Spiritual guide, it gives me no reason but to use it in such a way. By doing that, I can focus on what Christ asked me to do. This one Passage tells me I should not reject any Faith based on the fact I have accepted Christ, because Jesus also told us how to Judge a True Prophet.

1 Thessalonians 5:21“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry it has taken so long to reply. I'm trying to catch up with posts.
I guess a Jew could do what he wanted in the temple times and just offer sacrifice and say "I have kept the Law and am forgiven". God however told them that it was not sacrifice that He really wanted
Hosea 6: 6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire
but my ears you have opened— burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
7 Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.
8 I desire to do your will,
your law is within my heart.”

It is the same these days with repenting and not really wanting to change.
But of course sacrifice and repentance are good things and can cover up sins for the Jews (as they say) until the true forgiveness comes through the sacrifice of the Messiah. (this is seen to be the one speaking in Ps 40:7,8
Christians also do what is wrong and God forgives because of the sacrifice of Jesus in the New Covenant. It is complete forgiveness and not just a covering of sins for now. But of course God knows sincerity and hypocrisy and does not like the latter.

The problem I have is with the sincerity part. I still like doing and thinking things that Christians say are sinful. I'm not going to change. I'm not going to repent. And that leads to the hypocrisy problem... I know Christians and Baha'is that do those same behaviors. They say they believe in God. They say they love God, yet... they don't and can't repent and stop doing those sinful behaviors. I've seen it tear at a Christian friends heart. He felt so guilty. But, the worse thing, I think, is when they continue in the behavior and stop feeling guilty.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But, the worse thing, I think, is when they continue in the behavior and stop feeling guilty.

That is the key. While there is still guilt there is still a chance of progress, much like owning up to a bad habbit before you can find the will to eliminate it from your life.

Life becomes a choice between what God wants for us over our own desires.

Faith is not about the easy choice.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Well researched and written again CG.

That would be how I see the Bible, to be as a Spiritual guide, it gives me no reason but to use it in such a way. By doing that, I can focus on what Christ asked me to do. This one Passage tells me I should not reject any Faith based on the fact I have accepted Christ, because Jesus also told us how to Judge a True Prophet.

1 Thessalonians 5:21“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”

Regards Tony

Next problem... if we go back to the start of this thread, the NT has some questionable "fulfilled" prophecies. Baha'is can't reject Jesus, so how do you explain those? Most of the ones I question are from Matthew. I think I already asked Adrian, but maybe you could comment on them too, or remind me of what you said if you already have. Matthew says, I'm going to paraphrase, Jesus and the family goes to Egypt to fulfill "out of Egypt I called my son," He has Ramah crying because her children are gone... They were taken into captivity... as a fulfillment of Herod's men killing little boys in Bethlehem... an event that no one else mentions. He has Jesus being called a "Nazarene", which refers to vows being taken and has nothing to do with where you live... But Matthew calls him that because his family lives in Nazareth. These are just little prophecies, but they are very arguably false. Probably not a detail that comes up often for Baha'is to have to explain, but it's very important, because without a good explanation, we have a gospel writer making up false prophecies. Pull your symbolic magic Tony and tell me what's up with this.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is a problem I have with Baha'i. There is no idea that God tells us the truth in the scriptures. God lied to the disciples and deceived them into thinking that Jesus had risen bodily and it is fine by Baha'i to have a God who does that.

God did lie to the disciples because the disciples did not write the NT. The NT came to us by way of oral tradition, so it is not the exact words of Jesus. Or even anything close.

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

No, Jesus did not say that, men wrote that Jesus said that and it got recorded in the NT. Then a whole bunch of naïve people believed that Jesus said it because they could not reason that it would have been impossible for anyone who never even knew Jesus to know what He said and write it down decades later.

It does not matter what Baha'u'llah has written about anything. He is not the return of Jesus and as such his words are not important to anyone except a Baha'i.

Believe whatever you want to believe, they are just beliefs, nothing you can ever prove, so why argue about them incessantly?

And the words that Jesus allegedly spoke are not important to anyone except Christians.

OTOH what the Bible tells us about false Christs and about the return of Jesus should matter to us all,,,,,

It should matter but it does not matter to Christians.

They like you are denying the power of God.

No, we are not denying the power of God, we are denying that God used His power to bring a decomposed body back to life, because it God would not do such a stupid thing since there would be no reason to do it, so it is obvious to any logical person that those are just stories men wrote in a book.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

That is not Jesus saying He is coming back to earth. Face it, Jesus never promised to return. Of course Jesus knew he could not return in the same body because Jesus knew His body died.

Baha'i likes to use the KJV it seems and that is wrong in places. The more modern translations are more accurate in terms of their understanding of the ancient languages and having correct scriptures to translate from.

You always have an answer, a way to say we are wrong.

Baha’i does this, Baha’i does that. If Baha’u’llah is just a false prophet, why do you spend so much time trying to refute the Baha’i Faith? Baha’is do not go around trying to refute Christianity even though we disagree with some of the doctrines. Your time would be better spent trying to get converts to Christianity, before Jesus returns on Judgment Day. If I was a Christian that is what I would be doing.

But for some rather obvious reason some (but not all) Christians have a need to try to disprove Baha’u’llah. I can understand the motives of these Christians who are trying to convert me, they mean well, but by now you know I am not a convertible, I am a hardtop.

“No one casts stones at a tree without fruit. No one tries to extinguish a lamp without light! …….

And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.” Paris Talks, pp. 105-106

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah does more discrediting of Jesus that telling us what the Bible tells of Jesus.

By discrediting do you mean like this passage Baha’u’llah wrote about Jesus?

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Calling the Son of God just another Messenger from God is lowering Jesus status.

No, that is just putting Jesus on par with all the other Messengers of God, just where He belongs.

Usurping Jesus work that He will complete on His return and closing down the gospel message for all people after 1844 is..................so despicable and is the work of a false Christ and of the one who wants to attack the work of God which He did and is doing in Jesus and take down as many people with him as possible....................imho.

“And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!” Paris Talks, p. 106

Baha’u’llah never tried to usurp what belonged to Jesus but Baha’u’llah could not usurp what never belonged to Jesus.

The hundred-dollar question is why Baha’u’llah bothers you so much if He is just a false Christ? There are a lot of other men who claimed to be the return of Christ, why not go after them?

Baha’is cannot close down the Gospel message. We don’t have that much power. If it is the will of God that the Gospel Message is forever, then nothing a few million Baha’is do is going to make any difference. If you are right and we are wrong, all we have to do is wait for Jesus to return and straighten everything out. So why are you worried?

If Baha'u'llah had done one thing to complete this work that would be at least something,,,,,,,,,,but he has not.

It would not matter to you what Baha’u’llah did because you want Jesus to return, but we do not always get what we want, although we can hope for it till hell freezes over.

Baha’u’llah was not the one that would complete the work of Jesus. The only job that God gave Baha’u’llah was to complete His mission, garner a few followers who would carry the message to humanity, and write scriptures. Baha’u’llah wrote up the instructions for the Baha’is so they could complete the work that needs to be done to build the Kingdom of God on earth. That work has begun and it continues.

Yes I know you want to believe that the gospel was preached to all the world by 1844 but in reality it has not even been preached to all the world by now.

By all scholarly accounts it had been, but you can always look for loopholes and they will always be found because most prophecies can be interpreted so many ways, so you can always say they do not apply to Baha’u’llah, even when they are so specific they are too obvious to deny, like Micah 7:12.

All this just goes to show that people are going to believe whatever they want to believe in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.