G-d and the Devil

[EnhancedSpirit]

I'll get this out first...I'm not arguing with what you believe, but trying to understand it.

So Satan is simply the complete absence of God?

Kinda, if you can think of it outside of the material world. Satan is the manifestation of the absence of God. Like darkness is the absence of light. But when we are talking about spiritual things, it's not about laws of physics. It's about emotions. God is love, and Satan is the the complete absence of love-which is hate. God is truth, Satan is the complete absence of truth-which is a lie. God is joy, understanding, and peace, Satan is the complete absence of these things.

And more than just the emotions, but the energy that is created with our emotions. Satan is the sume of all negative energy. Enlightened humans are the product of all positive energy. And God (or for MV-Tao)is the energy source.

 

[Zaid]

Dear All,
The following Diagram explains what is Satan and how does He affect people

 

[wjb2008]

Oh dear. Personallly, as a Deist, I must wonder about the accuracy of ANY book that preaches a caring for others, and yet is so self-centered it call itself "The Book." That aside, another way of looking at it is thus: Satan is the God of the Old Testament (ever heard the phrase "that's kinda Old Testament, dontcha think?"), and a powerful angel realized that god was a dick and started competing with him. That angel--God of the New Testament--created Jesus exactly as Scripture says to be His crusader on Earth. The combined might of God and Jesus was enough to overthrow the worldly Satan and secure God's place as Ruler of Everything. Of course, this goes against many Biblical teachings, from the story of Satan to the Trinity to the Alpha and Omega thing, so the Catholic Church squelched it when that idea popped up. It does seem to be an interesting possibility, though.

 

[DreamQuickBook]

This maybe completely against the belief of some members, and if it is, I apologise in advance.

I was out walking the other day, sat on a bench to recover for a few minutes, and suddenly felt a 'wave of realization' perhaps that is enlightenment - I am not sure.

I was thinking of G-d and the devil; comparing the human form, in which, I believe, we reflect both of these 'aspects' and suddenly wondered if the devil is just the same - another 'facet' of G-d, which is there to 'test us'.

Any thoughts?

Not even Satanists agree on whether or not Satan exists, and if he exists, what he is like. The Bible is extremely vague with regard to Satan's nature. Satan began simple as any person or spirit which stood against the will of god, or as an adversary.

Satan, as an aspect of God, is an interesting idea. I would submit that Satan is the god of the instincts, reason and passion. The Judeo-Christian God is a theological/moral God, where as Satan is more of a worldly, amoral force. The Judeo-Christian God offers salvation from your human nature and original sin, while Satan offers you acceptance of your nature and of sin. The Judeo-Christian God teaches people to live by a universal moral law, while Satan teaches people to do what is in their nature to do, to follow their instincts, to do what is in their best interest, to not be taken advantage of, to be a human predator, not prey.

It would be interesting if the Christian God and Satan were a part of the same being, but I would wonder what that would do to the Christian idea of evil. ?

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

You might find the Baha'i take on this of interest.

The Baha'i scriptures state that all was created good, and that evil has no real existence of its own, being simply the relative lack of good (just as darkness isn't a physical "thing," but simply the absence of light, as is proven by the fact that you can bring light into a dark room, but not dark into a light room). Similarly, ignorance is lack of knowledge, impetuosity lack of judgement, etc..

God is One, Supreme, and has no equal or rival. So we Baha'ia reject the concept of a "devil" competing with God.

And "satan" simply refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.

Thus, "the devil made me do it" is a total non-starter from a Baha'i standpoint, as every adult (the insane possibly excepted) is held strictly responsible for his or her own doings and is fully answerable therefor.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Watcher]

People like to say that god is omnipotent. God is everywhere and in everything. But then when you bring us satan, the devil, evil, and sin, they say "well, god isn't there." or "that's the absense of god."
If there are places where god is absent then obviously god isn't omnipotent!
Choices
a) god isn't all powerful...there is god with the good, and satan with the bad
b) satan is an aspect of god (kinda like in hindi philosophy where all of the "gods" and "goddesses" are just aspects of Brahman.
c) satan, sin, hell, and evil exist only in the minds of people. if they exist it's because we create them
d) Tao--there is no good or bad. Just the tao.

 

[DreamQuickBook]

e) Satan is the Good and God is the evil.

 

[Sabio]

I have to agree with NetDoc's wisdom here...and to add my tid-bit I'd say God being the Supreme Is over all...but when Satin(one of His beautiful angels) planned to try to out do God and was cast from the heavens God was in charge of that. Satin who wants all the souls he can gather into misery IS the lowest point we can get if we fall into Satins grasp!

There IS no comparing...God's power is so far greater than Satins that Satin knows in the end God will win the battle for all of us!

Well said !

Satan excercised his free will (yes angels have free will too) and decided to try and elevate himself above God. Interesting enough 1/3 of the Angels in heaven followed him and were cast out of heaven. They now inhabit the atmosphere surrounding the earth, their sole pupose is to steal, kill and destroy (man).

Jesus gave us Christians power over the devil, to defeat his attacks and free those that are under his bondage. This is a real battle that rages on 24x7. But Satan is already defeated, he was defeated by Jesus when He hung on the cross.

So God is the creator of all things
Satan is one of his creations (angelic) that decided to rebel

Sabio

 

[Watcher]

Jesus gave us Christians power over the devil, to defeat his attacks and free those that are under his bondage

Well thank goodness the christians are safe

 

[jorylore]

This is an interesting thought. You are obviously a very pensive individual. I only hope that I understand you correctly.

I belive that the goodness of God is absolute and thus leaves no room for evil. (Deut. 32:4) That such a facet of his personality does not exist. My only point of reference is the Bible. Rom. 13:10 tells us that 'love does not work evil to one's neighbor.' Also, Ja 1:13 says that 'with evil things God does not try anyone'.

From whatever source a trial or temptation may come, it is not from God. He may allow such tests to refine are christian personality, while at the same time providing what we need to endure. (Phi. 4:13) But to say that evil is simply another facet of God is like saying that He is it's source.

Who would want to love and serve a God like that.

 

[Watcher]

This is an interesting thought. You are obviously a very pensive individual. I only hope that I understand you correctly.

I'll take that as a compliment....

From whatever source a trial or temptation may come, it is not from God. He may allow such tests to refine are christian personality, while at the same time providing what we need to endure. (Phi. 4:13) But to say that evil is simply another facet of God is like saying that He is it's source.

Well if "god" isn't in evil, then "god" isn't all-powerful and omnipotent. There are no loopholes.

Who would want to love and serve a God like that

My thoughts exactly....
Who says that "god" wants to be served anyways?

 

[jorylore]

If there are places where god is absent then obviously god isn't omnipotent!

Watcher, I don't understand how you're using the term "omnipotent." The fact that God is all powerfull does not mean that he has to be controlling or in evil as well. Evil is something that exists outside of him and that came into existance against his will by means of the free will of a seperat life form. Yes, I'm sure he could have used his power to make that not happen. But when he created the angels and humans he didn't meant for them to be automatrons. Mindless beings operated by remote control. So when one went bad and influenced the first humans to do the same, it wasn't a show of weakness on God's part. Rather, something he allowed to happen to complete a greater purpose.

 

[Watcher]

om·nip·o·tent

adj. Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.
n.

1. One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
2. Omnipotent God. Used with the.

Evil is something that exists outside of him and that came into existance against his will by means of the free will of a seperat life form

Then god isn't all powerful and everywhere if god isn't present in evil.

But when he created the angels and humans he didn't meant for them to be automatrons.

No, he'd rather that they either worship him or burn in hell

 

[KirbyFan101]

This maybe completely against the belief of some members, and if it is, I apologise in advance.

I was out walking the other day, sat on a bench to recover for a few minutes, and suddenly felt a 'wave of realization' perhaps that is enlightenment - I am not sure.

I was thinking of G-d and the devil; comparing the human form, in which, I believe, we reflect both of these 'aspects' and suddenly wondered if the devil is just the same - another 'facet' of G-d, which is there to 'test us'.

Any thoughts?

In my Christain days I had a startling realisation as well.

I was more afraid of God than the Devil: at least I was sure of where the Devil was standing.

 

[Pah]

If it has not already turned into a debate, this thread is fast approaching one - moved to General Religious Debates

 

[true blood]

Well if "god" isn't in evil, then "god" isn't all-powerful and omnipotent. There are no loopholes.

*** are you saying? Do you think "god" (whatever) needs to be in "evil" in order to be all powerful and omnipotent? How do you draw that conclusion?

 

[true blood]

In my Christain days I had a startling realisation as well.

I was more afraid of God than the Devil: at least I was sure of where the Devil was standing.

How can you possibly understand and be sure of where the Devil is standing without knowing where the God stands? Am I missing something?

 

[KirbyFan101]

How can you possibly understand and be sure of where the Devil is standing without knowing where the God stands? Am I missing something?

The Devil was to tempt us into the 7 deadly sins, and hence, to Hell. His purpose and objective was clear, simple, and defined.

God, on the other hand, is Ambiguous. If he really is omnipotent, then he foresaw humanities failure and then, hence, is responsible (for not preventing) every rape, murder, abuse and crime that has been commited. Does this not make him evil? If I create something that I know will harm itself, am I not in the wrong?

Also, I was confused by Jesus's perception of free will. In the scripture, he says to some dude (Peter, maybe?) "You will deny me three times". This indicated to me that the future was set and that I (like that dude, possibly Peter) have no free will: God has already mapped out my life.

I hated that idea. I hated it with a passion.

I was never able to GRASP God well, and hence, I left the church. I just wasn't Christian material.

Not only that, but I took it one step further and renounced the idea of God, as I saw it as being rediculous. This occured to me in physics when we learnt about the laws of physics. If God can defy those laws, then why do we have them in place in the first place?

Does that clear up things for you?

 

[Mister Emu]

This indicated to me that the future was set and that I (like that dude, possibly Peter) have no free will: God has already mapped out my life.

This is how I see it, you do not have to agree with me as this is my opinion. The Lord is outside of time, it has no relavence, He is the I AM, existing at all points in time simultaneously, it is not that you are forced to do something, it is that you have already done it.

This occured to me in physics when we learnt about the laws of physics. If God can defy those laws, then why do we have them in place in the first place?

Hmmm, man can break the laws he creates so why not the Lord as well? Just because a man breaks a law, does this mean the law is purposeless/useless?

 

[KirbyFan101]

Hmmm, man can break the laws he creates so why not the Lord as well? Just because a man breaks a law, does this mean the law is purposeless/useless?

The laws of science aren't like the laws of society. If you break a law in science, it ceases to be a law.