G-d blew it

[Skwim]

I would have all "humans" reproduce through alternation of generations like the mosses, liverworts, and hornworts do. Just because.

​

 

[thau]

By not being afraid of their make believe friend? Or perhaps they should ask how can one see so many obvious ways things could be better and accept there is a god?

Well, easy. For those like me, the evidence is so abundant in various ways we are certain the G-d of the Bible is God. So when He says “my ways are not your ways, my thoughts are far above your thoughts” we should doubt Him?

My point was obvious. To anyone who believes this God exists, then to suggest to Him that He blew it the way he ordered humanity and its trials is simply insulting (putting it mildly).

 

[Sir Doom]

Well, easy. For those like me, the evidence is so abundant in various ways we are certain the G-d of the Bible is God. So when He says “my ways are not your ways, my thoughts are far above your thoughts” we should doubt Him?

My point was obvious. To anyone who believes this God exists, then to suggest to Him that He blew it the way he ordered humanity and its trials is simply insulting (putting it mildly).

This is arrogance.

EDIT: To be more accurate it is hubris.

To suspect that God would simply hand you the answers instead of making you experience life like the rest of us... How can expect so much of God? How can you think of yourself so significant in his eyes?

 

[thau]

This is arrogance.

EDIT: To be more accurate it is hubris.

To suspect that God would simply hand you the answers instead of making you experience life like the rest of us... How can expect so much of God? How can you think of yourself so significant in his eyes?

My apologies. I did not read your words carefully enough. I now understand why you accuse me of hubris so I will reformulate a response.

No one handed me answers in a dream or on a platter that shined in my eyes. I worked on my quest for more years than I can recall but I have come to a conclusion, yes.

For one, it all makes perfect sense. For two, without God makes zero sense.

I have considered all I was taught by first parents, then the Church, and Scripture as well. Then I prayed all my life and tried to obey. A Catholic college in Minnesota taught me virtually nothing. Then in my late twenties I went on my own search for reasons. I focused on all of the miracle claims and studied them in earnest. It is the validation that I sought. The empirical evidence found in the signs and wonders our Lord provided was His way of saying “I am who Am.” As I said, it all makes perfect sense and no other creed or absence of creed has any semblance of a logical alternative. Nor are they able to present the signs and wonders of the Judeo-Christian G-d.

For the atheist to tell me life happened on its own and then a human was fashioned from in earlier stages was no more than a micro-organism without the aid of an intelligent designer strikes me as preposterous.

For other doubters to tell me weeping statues are tricks assembled by clever nuns is laughable.

For others to tell me the three children at Fatima who said the Virgin Mary would perform a great miracle for all the people to see on October 13th, ninety days hence, and that it happens with even the atheists and communists present falling to their knees --- for doubters to tell me it was a mass hallucination is utter nonsense, IMO.

For others to tell me the 250,000 Egyptians who testify to see the Virgin Mary on various nights in 1968 on top of a Coptic Cathedral blessing the people and floating above the domes replete with colorful plumes of smoke, colorful lights and crazy white birds flying at midnight – for doubters to tell me it was more mass hallucination simply because some present were not allowed the same vision by God --- that again, is without credibility, IMO.

For others to tell me Padre Pio faked his 5 bleeding wounds for 50 years is an unbelievable stretch, IMO.

For others to tell me all witnesses to various Catholic exorcisms are all lying to all of the supernatural manifestations they testify to --- that again is without valid sensibility all things considered, IMO.

For others to tell me the Shroud of Turin has no inexplicable amazing qualities to the image on this cloth (verified by science no less) – again, holds no reason for me at all, IMO.

For other to deny a thousand healings at Lourdes, France verified by numerous independent medical panels flies in the face of the miracle that first occurred there in 1858. That being where a young illiterate girl was observed visiting with the Virgin Mary. They all doubted her. Then she dug in the grass as commanded by Mary and some miraculous healing springs formed, there to this day. And when the priests demanded the young Bernardette ask the lady her name she finally responded “tell them, I am the Immaculate Conception.” The bishop went blanche when Bernardette reported this because even though Bernardette had no idea what this meant, the clergy knew. It was 4 years earlier when the pope invoked the doctrine of infallibility by declaring the Virgin Mary to have been immaculately conceived without sin, much to the disdain of the Protestant world. It seems to me, Bernardette’s little “miracle” settled that matter.

 

[Sir Doom]

My apologies. I did not read your words carefully enough. I now understand why you accuse me of hubris so I will reformulate a response.

No one handed me answers in a dream or on a platter that shined in my eyes. I worked on my quest for more years than I can recall but I have come to a conclusion, yes.

For one, it all makes perfect sense. For two, without God makes zero sense.

I have considered all I was taught by first parents, then the Church, and Scripture as well. Then I prayed all my life and tried to obey. A Catholic college in Minnesota taught me virtually nothing. Then in my late twenties I went on my own search for reasons. I focused on all of the miracle claims and studied them in earnest. It is the validation that I sought. The empirical evidence found in the signs and wonders our Lord provided was His way of saying “I am who Am.” As I said, it all makes perfect sense and no other creed or absence of creed has any semblance of a logical alternative. Nor are they able to present the signs and wonders of the Judeo-Christian G-d.

For the atheist to tell me life happened on its own and then a human was fashioned from in earlier stages was no more than a micro-organism without the aid of an intelligent designer strikes me as preposterous.

For other doubters to tell me weeping statues are tricks assembled by clever nuns is laughable.

For others to tell me the three children at Fatima who said the Virgin Mary would perform a great miracle for all the people to see on October 13th, ninety days hence, and that it happens with even the atheists and communists present falling to their knees --- for doubters to tell me it was a mass hallucination is utter nonsense, IMO.

For others to tell me the 250,000 Egyptians who testify to see the Virgin Mary on various nights in 1968 on top of a Coptic Cathedral blessing the people and floating above the domes replete with colorful plumes of smoke, colorful lights and crazy white birds flying at midnight – for doubters to tell me it was more mass hallucination simply because some present were not allowed the same vision by God --- that again, is without credibility, IMO.

For others to tell me Padre Pio faked his 5 bleeding wounds for 50 years is an unbelievable stretch, IMO.

For others to tell me all witnesses to various Catholic exorcisms are all lying to all of the supernatural manifestations they testify to --- that again is without valid sensibility all things considered, IMO.

For others to tell me the Shroud of Turin has no inexplicable amazing qualities to the image on this cloth (verified by science no less) – again, holds no reason for me at all, IMO.

For other to deny a thousand healings at Lourdes, France verified by numerous independent medical panels flies in the face of the miracle that first occurred there in 1858. That being where a young illiterate girl was observed visiting with the Virgin Mary. They all doubted her. Then she dug in the grass as commanded by Mary and some miraculous healing springs formed, there to this day. And when the priests demanded the young Bernardette ask the lady her name she finally responded “tell them, I am the Immaculate Conception.” The bishop went blanche when Bernardette reported this because even though Bernardette had no idea what this meant, the clergy knew. It was 4 years earlier when the pope invoked the doctrine of infallibility by declaring the Virgin Mary to have been immaculately conceived without sin, much to the disdain of the Protestant world. It seems to me, Bernardette’s little “miracle” settled that matter.

If you actually believe that none of these events are open to interpretation than you do not understand the gift that God has given us.

 

[Akivah]

I would make things pretty much the way they are except that I would set it up so anyone who whined about the way things are would burst into flame.

Ouch. The whole race would immolate in an hour.

 

[Thief]

I'd create spiritual beings with the same potential as me, teach them what I know and encourage them to go off and create their own worlds/universes.

That would be us.

 

[Thief]

I don't like fleas or mosquitoes.

It would be nice if mobility was easier.

And if the senses could be sharpened so we don't eat poison without knowing it.

And if only we could be born with a better sense of....
do unto others as you would have it done unto you....

oh....and predators won't bite.
maybe we could be more stinky and like it.

 

[thau]

If you actually believe that none of these events are open to interpretation than you do not understand the gift that God has given us.

I have been entertaining opposing opinions and arguments for 25 years on these very same matters. IOW, I am open to interpretation.

But it appears to me that you are saying nothing can be known? Nothing can lead one to a rational conclusion? God is not capable of manifesting Himself?

That is what I am interpretating from you. And I do not see how you can make such claims?

 

[viole]

My apologies. I did not read your words carefully enough. I now understand why you accuse me of hubris so I will reformulate a response.

No one handed me answers in a dream or on a platter that shined in my eyes. I worked on my quest for more years than I can recall but I have come to a conclusion, yes.

For one, it all makes perfect sense. For two, without God makes zero sense.

I have considered all I was taught by first parents, then the Church, and Scripture as well. Then I prayed all my life and tried to obey. A Catholic college in Minnesota taught me virtually nothing. Then in my late twenties I went on my own search for reasons. I focused on all of the miracle claims and studied them in earnest. It is the validation that I sought. The empirical evidence found in the signs and wonders our Lord provided was His way of saying “I am who Am.” As I said, it all makes perfect sense and no other creed or absence of creed has any semblance of a logical alternative. Nor are they able to present the signs and wonders of the Judeo-Christian G-d.

For the atheist to tell me life happened on its own and then a human was fashioned from in earlier stages was no more than a micro-organism without the aid of an intelligent designer strikes me as preposterous.

For other doubters to tell me weeping statues are tricks assembled by clever nuns is laughable.

For others to tell me the three children at Fatima who said the Virgin Mary would perform a great miracle for all the people to see on October 13th, ninety days hence, and that it happens with even the atheists and communists present falling to their knees --- for doubters to tell me it was a mass hallucination is utter nonsense, IMO.

For others to tell me the 250,000 Egyptians who testify to see the Virgin Mary on various nights in 1968 on top of a Coptic Cathedral blessing the people and floating above the domes replete with colorful plumes of smoke, colorful lights and crazy white birds flying at midnight – for doubters to tell me it was more mass hallucination simply because some present were not allowed the same vision by God --- that again, is without credibility, IMO.

For others to tell me Padre Pio faked his 5 bleeding wounds for 50 years is an unbelievable stretch, IMO.

For others to tell me all witnesses to various Catholic exorcisms are all lying to all of the supernatural manifestations they testify to --- that again is without valid sensibility all things considered, IMO.

For others to tell me the Shroud of Turin has no inexplicable amazing qualities to the image on this cloth (verified by science no less) – again, holds no reason for me at all, IMO.

For other to deny a thousand healings at Lourdes, France verified by numerous independent medical panels flies in the face of the miracle that first occurred there in 1858. That being where a young illiterate girl was observed visiting with the Virgin Mary. They all doubted her. Then she dug in the grass as commanded by Mary and some miraculous healing springs formed, there to this day. And when the priests demanded the young Bernardette ask the lady her name she finally responded “tell them, I am the Immaculate Conception.” The bishop went blanche when Bernardette reported this because even though Bernardette had no idea what this meant, the clergy knew. It was 4 years earlier when the pope invoked the doctrine of infallibility by declaring the Virgin Mary to have been immaculately conceived without sin, much to the disdain of the Protestant world. It seems to me, Bernardette’s little “miracle” settled that matter.

Question for you. Apparently Mary deviated the trajectory of the bullet directed at the pope JP2 in Rome several years ago. Alas not completely; it would have been more effective to just jam the gun (just a little advice to Mary for the future). But the point is that Mary seems to be mobile when she wants to make miracles. I.e. She is not necessarily stationary at Fatima, Lourdes or wherever else.

Why then do all those poor and sick people, looking for a miracle, need to make the ardous trip to Fatima, Lourdes, wherever, to get what they ask for?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Falvlun]

Well, if I were the sort of God that wants my creation to love me, then I would take the time and make the effort to allow them to actually, you know, get to know me. I would hang out in bars. I would attend weddings. I would lay out on the beach and enjoy the sun and play sand volleyball. I would ask a kid why he was crying. I would explain to people why what they did was wrong, and show them how much better it would work out if they tried out a different method. And if people still didn't like me, then well, that is their choice. There would be no punishment, because that completely defeats the concept of free-will and freely offered love.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Well, if I were the sort of God that wants my creation to love me, then I would take the time and make the effort to allow them to actually, you know, get to know me. I would hang out in bars. I would attend weddings. I would lay out on the beach and enjoy the sun and play sand volleyball. I would ask a kid why he was crying. I would explain to people why what they did was wrong, and show them how much better it would work out if they tried out a different method. And if people still didn't like me, then well, that is their choice. There would be no punishment, because that completely defeats the concept of free-will and freely offered love.

Pfft - you're not nearly arbitrary, inconsistent, counfounding, or esoteric enough to be a god.

 

[InChrist]

If I were a god, and my primary attribute was love, I'd create a universe which consisted of nothing but love. It's not difficult to imagine or conceive, and if one is all-powerful, it would not be difficult to create.

Except I think that real love must be something which is voluntarily and freely given, it can't be something that is created in a forceful or robotic way or it wouldn't truly be love.

 

[Falvlun]

Except I think that real love must be something which is voluntarily and freely given, it can't be something that is created in a forceful or robotic way or it wouldn't truly be love.

Do you think that the Christian narrative indicates a forceful way which God has developed to receive love and worship?

I do. How free can love for God be when the alternative is eternal torture? (Or, depending upon your beliefs regarding hell, loving God gets you eternal benefit.)

If someone puts a gun to your head and says "Love me or die", and you choose to love them, how free was your choice?

Or, if someone says "If you love me, I will give you a million dollars a year for the rest of your long life", and you choose to love them, was your decision truly based on the freedom to love them or the desire to have a cushy life?

 

[thau]

Question for you. Apparently Mary deviated the trajectory of the bullet directed at the pope JP2 in Rome several years ago. Alas not completely; it would have been more effective to just jam the gun (just a little advice to Mary for the future). But the point is that Mary seems to be mobile when she wants to make miracles. I.e. She is not necessarily stationary at Fatima, Lourdes or wherever else.

Why then do all those poor and sick people, looking for a miracle, need to make the ardous trip to Fatima, Lourdes, wherever, to get what they ask for?

I would answer the reason some must make the trip is for a higher good that witnesses to the world the presence of God. If the suffering servant were cured in their home through prayers it would be a wonderful thing but it would not be well known. A healing at Lourdes is associated with the first great miracle in 1858 and also associated with the Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ more directly. It is a greater witness to the truth.

This may be God’s purpose for doing so at Lourdes. It is also important to note that only a very tiny percentage receive a physical healing at the spring waters of Lourdes. The primary message from Lourdes is God is real, Jesus is Lord, repent, pray and convert. That is the real importance.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Giant_spider_strikes_again%21.jpg

 

[Sir Doom]

I have been entertaining opposing opinions and arguments for 25 years on these very same matters. IOW, I am open to interpretation.

I'm sure that you are. But I am also sure that the conclusions you have drawn from the list of events you describe are HEAVILY coated with what you ALREADY believe. There is nothing wrong with that, of course. But there are no two people on this planet with the same beliefs and thus no two people will draw the same exact conclusions.

But it appears to me that you are saying nothing can be known? Nothing can lead one to a rational conclusion?

I think knowledge itself is a fairly broken concept, yeah. But rationality is quite different. Do you expect that every conclusion you draw is rational? And if so, do you also expect that any opposing conclusion is irrational? Personally, I try to do my best not to label anything I believe as 'rational'. I'll let someone else point that out if they think its necessary. Nor do I automatically assume those that disagree with me are being irrational. This would be nothing more than base arrogance with a thick coat of ignorance on top.

God is not capable of manifesting Himself?

I'm no expert on what God is capable of. But I'm pretty sure I'm talking about what HUMANS are capable of. In this case, humans are capable of examining an event or phenomenon and interpreting what we witness. That IS a manifestation of God. You can point to stopping bullets or bleeding priests to find God if that is what is necessary for you. But I find such things to be nothing more than clever humans doing what clever humans do. Cleverness, again, being a manifestation of God.

That is what I am interpretating from you. And I do not see how you can make such claims?

These things happen.

 

[Iti oj]

If I became God I would make all humans gods.

 

[viole]

I would answer the reason some must make the trip is for a higher good that witnesses to the world the presence of God. If the suffering servant were cured in their home through prayers it would be a wonderful thing but it would not be well known. A healing at Lourdes is associated with the first great miracle in 1858 and also associated with the Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ more directly. It is a greater witness to the truth.

This may be God’s purpose for doing so at Lourdes. It is also important to note that only a very tiny percentage receive a physical healing at the spring waters of Lourdes. The primary message from Lourdes is God is real, Jesus is Lord, repent, pray and convert. That is the real importance.

Yes, a tiny percentage. Which does not deviate significantly from the percentage of the ones experiencing spontaneous remissions of their ailments, independently of what they believe or not believe in. Probably, you have more chances to heal if you stay home and do not submit yourself to all the stress of the journey.

But hope springs eternal. The same hope I can read in the watery eyes of the devout when an idol (oops, a statue) cries because of the leak of a broken pipe or humidity condensation. A natural adaptation, probably.

After all we must acknowledge some miracles if we want to justify the horrendous price of stale H2O just because it is bottled in cheap plastic bottles (made in Lourdes) with the shape of Mary.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Sir Doom]

If I became God I would make all humans gods.

Sounds like a plan.

 

[InChrist]

Do you think that the Christian narrative indicates a forceful way which God has developed to receive love and worship?

No, I don't see it as forceful, but rather sensible, as in common sense, reasonable, and right.

I do. How free can love for God be when the alternative is eternal torture? (Or, depending upon your beliefs regarding hell, loving God gets you eternal benefit.)

If someone puts a gun to your head and says "Love me or die", and you choose to love them, how free was your choice?

Or, if someone says "If you love me, I will give you a million dollars a year for the rest of your long life", and you choose to love them, was your decision truly based on the freedom to love them or the desire to have a cushy life?

[/quote]

Well, I don't think you are seeing or understanding the whole picture and you are thinking in limited human terms and bringing God down to human level. You are seeing God as a human threatening other humans to love Him... or else. From my perspective, which I have from reading the scriptures and from personally knowing the amazing love of God, I know that God is not a human being, but the Creator who created humans. He created humans to live in relationship with Him and be sustained by His life-giving love, power, and goodness. Just as a fish will suffer and die out of water, so I believe a human will suffer in agony outside of an eternal relationship with God who is their life-giving source. The difference is that unlike fish humans are made in the image of God to live for eternity. I believe this eternity will either be joy with God forever or suffering apart from God because humans cannot sustain themselves in any sense of goodness separated from God. God invites everyone to freely come to Him, but He does not force. The choice is totally up to each person.