G-D's Son Is Israel- Not Jesus

[Ingledsva]

Jesus says that he has brothers and sisters (Luke 8:21), but in Colossians 1:18 it says that he was the firstborn among the dead... Did Jesus have to undergo the process of election?

That is AFTER his death. They are saying he is the first to rise. Also, he was elected according to the story - when the Holy Spirit ascended and God said this is my beloved Son.

If he was the awaited Messiah - he had a mission - and was accepted at baptism. That Messiah is supposed to bring about the end, and Final Judgment of those waiting in Sheol.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

I don't know about hated him. Personally I don't care about jesus' opinion of the Jews.

Anyone whom claims to be divine, change commandments, expect to be worshipped in any manner is extremely far away from the G-D of the Jews. Not only that he has committed a grave sin.

And would fall under Deuterenomy 13- verse 2 to the end of the chapter.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Jews will know when the Messiah comes, when he has fulfilled the messianic prophets in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37. Besides that the Messiah is not that important. It is G-D who is important. That's why Jews are still awaiting the Messiah. He hasn't come yet.

The Messiah will only be a mortal man.

We rely on "fleshly" lineage because that's what G-D told us to do.

Which prophets were killed?

You may also be interested in the passages below.

Dt. 29(28): "Concerns us and our descendents forever, that we may carry out all the words of this Law."

Joshua 1(5): "I will not leave or forsake you…(7) observe the entire Law … do not swerve from it."

Psalms 19(8): "The Law of the Lord is perfect… (10) the ordinances of the Lord are true; all of them are just."

Ps. 119(160): "permanence is Your words chief trait, each of Your just ordinances iseverlasting."

Isaiah 42(21): "pleased the Lord in His justice to make His Law great and glorious."

Baruch 4(1): "the Law enduresforever."


Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.


Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

Yep, I can't figure out how they think Jesus is the Messiah, as the requirements were not fulfilled, - let alone that he was somehow part of a trinity God. The NT doesn't even teach that trinity idea.

I mean good grief, they misread Isaiah and make Isaiah's son Emmanuel, into some future prophecy of Jesus.

And misread another section, and turn a King of Babylon into Lucifer.

*

 

[roger1440]

The problem is that no where is that in the Torah. The Torah goes into very great detail of what G-D expects from the Jewish people.

Jewish scripture is filled with metaphors, from the first page to the last.

 

[Harmonious]

Does the mind evolve? Is spirit real and does it evolve?

I don't know about the mind evolving. I'm still not sure what you are asking me, or rather, what you are hoping that I'll say.

Spirit... I'm assuming you are referring to a soul. Yes, it's real. Does it evolve? I don't know. I know that it learns, and grows, and becomes more of however we act. Does that count as evolution, or growth?

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm truly having difficulty grasping what you are looking for.

 

[Harmonious]

Jewish scripture is filled with metaphors, from the first page to the last.

This is true. However, what are the metaphors referring to? That takes learning to decipher.

 

[Flankerl]

Can you tell me why Jews are still waiting for their Messiah? How many more thousands of years do you believe it will take for him to appear and set up his kingdom in Israel?

So you as a JW probably have inside knowledge, when is the end really gonna come? Or have you people stopped with your false end of the world predictions?

Also for us the Moshiach has yet to arrive.
Your Messiah died only to return "in a bit". This "in a bit" was almost 2000 years ago.
You are in no position to lecture us about that topic.

 

[savagewind]

I don't know about the mind evolving. I'm still not sure what you are asking me, or rather, what you are hoping that I'll say.

I am not hoping.

Spirit... I'm assuming you are referring to a soul. Yes, it's real. Does it evolve? I don't know. I know that it learns, and grows, and becomes more of however we act. Does that count as evolution, or growth?

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm truly having difficulty grasping what you are looking for.

People have minds and I believe souls. Nations also have mind which would be law and soul which would be progress.

Joseph, Mary and Jesus resulted (evolved) because of Israel's obedience and disobedience to the promise of God. Also John. Thus Jesus is Israel personified.

 

[George-ananda]

However, G-D explicitly says that his first born son is Israel.

Ridiculous chauvinism.

 

[Unification]

Yes. They made God's son into a Greek god. So that which they made is as far away from the Jews as you can get. But that which was born is Israel personified.

Spiritual, inner, within.
Exodus chapter 4:

Destruction of Moses natural sinful human body and building of Moses' human cleansed spiritual body.

Egypt: human body of slavery to sin. Israel: human body of God. Zipporah is Moses's wife. (Body bearing two seeds(children) (Gershom-the evil(self) seed and Elizier-the messiah/deliverer seed)
The rod in this chapter is the two edged sword of the speaking Word of God. (Good and evil established in the serpent(mind) of Moses.
Tail-evil, hand-good.
Hand in bosom: (his human body(flesh) being leprous(sinful) as snow(cleansed) and the hand in bosom again turned back into his old sinful flesh.
Water of the river poured on dry land(body cleansed by the washing of truth by the living Word(rod) of the Lord within Moses' body. . And the water becoming blood on the dry land is the forgiveness and cleansing of sin by the blood within Moses' body. Dry land is spot/sin free body.
Moses and Aaron (typified Lord/high priest speaking through Moses).
Jethro: father in-law. 7 daughters. No different than 7 women in Isaiah 1 and 7 churches in revelation. 7 spiritual centers in body transformed into "And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;"
Israel is my son, "even" thy firstborn. Every human has the evil /darkness/self seed and the good/light/Godly seed in their body. Spiritual evening is union of husband(Lord) and wife(body or seed(s) in body So the seed(child) can serve the Lord and if refusal, than slaying of that seed. Told to "even" thy firstborn again. Nevertheless Zipporah(the human body of Moses) evened the seed by circumcision(spiritual Union, cleaving of bloody husband (spirit cleansing by the blood) and that particular seed(child) in the body.
So we have the two sons in need of spiritual Union and cleansing by water(truth) and blood.
Pharaoh( Moses' self-will, serving self, ego, Satan) of Egypt (human body of sin) becoming the Lord (Lord's will/servant) of Israel(body washed and cleansed and spot-free).


Destruction of natural Moses' human body of himself and his will and then the transformation into Moses' spiritual body of God doing God's will.

 

[Unification]

Spiritual, inner, within.
Exodus chapter 4:

Destruction of Moses natural sinful human body and building of Moses' human cleansed spiritual body.

Egypt: human body of slavery to sin. Israel: human body of God. Zipporah is Moses's wife. (Body bearing two seeds(children) (Gershom-the evil(self) seed and Elizier-the messiah/deliverer seed)
The rod in this chapter is the two edged sword of the speaking Word of God. (Good and evil established in the serpent(mind) of Moses.
Tail-evil, hand-good.
Hand in bosom: (his human body(flesh) being leprous(sinful) as snow(cleansed) and the hand in bosom again turned back into his old sinful flesh.
Water of the river poured on dry land(body cleansed by the washing of truth by the living Word(rod) of the Lord within Moses' body. . And the water becoming blood on the dry land is the forgiveness and cleansing of sin by the blood within Moses' body. Dry land is spot/sin free body.
Moses and Aaron (typified Lord/high priest speaking through Moses).
Jethro: father in-law. 7 daughters. No different than 7 women in Isaiah 1 and 7 churches in revelation. 7 spiritual centers in body transformed into "And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;"
Israel is my son, "even" thy firstborn. Every human has the evil /darkness/self seed and the good/light/Godly seed in their body. Spiritual evening is union of husband(Lord) and wife(body or seed(s) in body So the seed(child) can serve the Lord and if refusal, than slaying of that seed. Told to "even" thy firstborn again. Nevertheless Zipporah(the human body of Moses) evened the seed by circumcision(spiritual Union, cleaving of bloody husband (spirit cleansing by the blood) and that particular seed(child) in the body.
So we have the two sons in need of spiritual Union and cleansing by water(truth) and blood.
Pharaoh( Moses' self-will, serving self, ego, Satan) of Egypt (human body of sin) becoming the Lord (Lord's will/servant) of Israel(body washed and cleansed and spot-free).


Destruction of natural Moses' human body of himself and his will and then the transformation into Moses' spiritual body of God doing God's will.

We argue over the silliest, meaningless things. For individuals who claim to love God so much and follow religion instead (man's created empires and natural literal and historical meaningless) of outward vanity rather than getting rid of the "me" and "I" and "we" and "us" and "self" and letting the the Spirit teach unity and spiritual things. Not literal or history. Placing scriptures written by the SPIRIT of God as low as literal and natural and earthly and historical meanings is blasphemous. Everything in scripture is happening metaphorically inside of the human body and their testimony. The biggest divide is the "name" of the saving seed (Messiah) impregnated in the human body..... Who cares if it's Jesus for this individual, Tyrone for this individual, Yeshua for this individual, Joshua for this individual, etc. Never was and never will be a human fleshly figure coming to save and conquer literally. The Messiah/ the Christ saves and conquers internally and transforms the natural man into the spiritual man. We all have different languages and names and traditions and carnal blasphemy. None of it matters. You are all condemning yourselves. Your feasts, your days, your this, your that, your mythical fleshly human figure, it all happens inside of the human body. Stiffnecked indeed. Be brought low, defeat the self, defeat the mind.... Let the Spirit teach. Most humans can never receive this, because it would mean shutting off everything they thought they knew which they hold onto self and it would mean forsaking their ego and pride and reputation and severing relationships for the real truth and God.

 

[JayJayDee]

So you as a JW probably have inside knowledge, when is the end really gonna come? Or have you people stopped with your false end of the world predictions?

I don't think we ever made any "day or hour" predictions. (Matt 24:36) We hoped that certain years may bring the blessings of the kingdom so that wickedness on earth could end, but God obviously has his own timeframe for these events. It kept our hope bright. Even the apostles got the timing of the kingdom wrong. (Acts 1:6)

Also for us the Moshiach has yet to arrive.
Your Messiah died only to return "in a bit". This "in a bit" was almost 2000 years ago.
You are in no position to lecture us about that topic.

I don't recall lecturing anyone. Just asked how long you might have to wait is all.
God's counting of time must be a wee bit different to ours. He is an eternal being after all....not bound by earth time.

We are grateful that we are awaiting his return....rather than for him to show up at all.
He actually said that the Jewish nation would not see him again until they blessed the one who came in the name of his Father. I guess that is not going to happen any time soon then?

 

[JayJayDee]

I don't know about hated him. Personally I don't care about jesus' opinion of the Jews.

It appears as though the Jews' accusations against Jesus was extremely venomous. They broke their own law to hold an illegal trial and produced false witnesses against him. This is in our scripture......the history of the Jews is there too.
You already know what they did to the ancient prophets.

Anyone whom claims to be divine, change commandments, expect to be worshipped in any manner is extremely far away from the G-D of the Jews.

I prefer the Bible's version of events, not Christendom's. Jesus never claimed to be anything but the son of God and not once did he solicit worship for himself. He directed all worship to his God and Father.

Messiah was to offer his life to atone for the sin of Adam.
The perfect life that Adam lost needed a perfect life to be offered in exchange. The law demanded equivalency, did it not? (Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life)
There were no perfect humans on earth to offer the necessary sacrifice pictured by the animals offered under the law. So Messiah was sent from heaven to begin life as a human embryo and to be born of a maiden in Bethlehem as it was prophesied. He was born into the correct family in David's family line. He was no false prophet...his teachings continue to be upheld even to this day....but unfortunately not by Christendom.

Jesus did not change the law but he said he came to fulfill it and eliminate the curse that it was to the Jewish people. It condemned them every day of their lives. The principles embodied in the law were summed up with just two basic commands....to love God with ones whole being and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

If you are still under law, where are your sacrifices? Where is your temple? If things were not supposed to change until Messiah came, why did they?

Jesus said that the Pharisees' interpretation of the law was excessive and had become an unnecessary burden to the people. So it was not the law itself that Jesus changed, but the ridiculous interpretation that the Jewish leaders had placed on it. They were so overly concerned about nit picking the words that they forgot the spirit of the law that was never designed to cripple them spiritually.

Not only that he has committed a grave sin.

And would fall under Deuterenomy 13- verse 2 to the end of the chapter.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Since Jesus did not come to introduce a different God, but to show his brothers how far removed their worship had become from what God gave them on Mt Sinai, Jesus did not break any laws, nor did he commit any sin. Jesus' description of the religious leaders of his day leave little room to feel any compassion for them or the sentence he passed on them.

Jews will know when the Messiah comes, when he has fulfilled the messianic prophets in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37. Besides that the Messiah is not that important. It is G-D who is important. That's why Jews are still awaiting the Messiah. He hasn't come yet.

Peace on earth was not to be expected straight away. Daniel saw a vision where Jesus was enthroned as king of God's kingdom. The scene was heavenly, not earthly. (Dan 7:13, 14)

It was foretold in Psalm 110:1-2...."The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”

God said to the Lord that he was to sit and wait for his "enemies to be made a footstool for his feet" so Messiah's return to heaven did not mean that his rulership would be instantaneous....he was to "rule in the midst of his enemies". I believe he is ruling right now. His enemies are certainly evident in the world at present.

The Messiah will only be a mortal man.

Jesus was a mortal man in every way, or else he could not have been put to death. Humans can hardly kill God.

We rely on "fleshly" lineage because that's what G-D told us to do.

This is why God changed what it meant to be Jewish.....a son of Abraham. A circumcision of the heart, not the flesh.

According to Hosea...Hosea 2:23 “And I will say to those who were not My people,‘You are My people!’ And they will say, ‘You are my God!’”

Which prophets were killed?

2 Chron 24:20, 21; 1Kings 19:10; Jer 20:2; 37:15; 38:6

Even to disrespect a prophet of The Lord was a serious thing in the eyes of God.

2 Chronicles 36:15-16...."The Lord, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, until there was no remedy."

Jeremiah 7:25-28, 30, 33-34...."Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets, daily rising early and sending them. Yet they did not listen to Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck; they did more evil than their fathers. “You shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you; and you shall call to them, but they will not answer you. You shall say to them, ‘This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the Lord their God or accept correction; truth has perished and has been cut off from their mouth. For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight,” declares the Lord, “they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. The dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the sky and for the beasts of the earth; and no one will frighten them away. Then I will make to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride; for the land will become a ruin."

This is an appalling history considering the conditions for the covenant that Israel made with their God.

Exodus 19:3-8..."Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself. Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.” So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord had commanded him. All the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do!” And Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord."

It seems to me that God's promise to the Jews was conditional. God said they would 'become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, "IF" they obeyed their God and kept his covenant. The truth is, the didn't.

 

[wizanda]

Israel, means what?

Those that reign with God.

 

[2ndpillar]

The Jews that make up Israel.

Dear CM,
The "Jews" are made up of Judah and Benjamin, with the Levites taking up residence with them. Israel is with respect to the lost brothers of Judah, who are among the nations, and in whom the tribe of Joseph and his son Ephraim, who carries the name.

 

[Flankerl]

I don't think we ever made any "day or hour" predictions. (Matt 24:36) We hoped that certain years may bring the blessings of the kingdom so that wickedness on earth could end, but God obviously has his own timeframe for these events. It kept our hope bright. Even the apostles got the timing of the kingdom wrong. (Acts 1:6)

lol yeah JWs never gave a day or hour prediction. But always a clear year when it was going to happen.

It never did. I think the last prediction was for 2000. Hilarious.

I don't recall lecturing anyone. Just asked how long you might have to wait is all.

It's actually not about waiting but preparing.

He actually said that the Jewish nation would not see him again until they blessed the one who came in the name of his Father. I guess that is not going to happen any time soon then?

Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.

 

[metis]

It appears as though the Jews' accusations against Jesus was extremely venomous. They broke their own law to hold an illegal trial and produced false witnesses against him. This is in our scripture......the history of the Jews is there too.
You already know what they did to the ancient prophets.



I prefer the Bible's version of events, not Christendom's. Jesus never claimed to be anything but the son of God and not once did he solicit worship for himself. He directed all worship to his God and Father.

Messiah was to offer his life to atone for the sin of Adam.
The perfect life that Adam lost needed a perfect life to be offered in exchange. The law demanded equivalency, did it not? (Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life)
There were no perfect humans on earth to offer the necessary sacrifice pictured by the animals offered under the law. So Messiah was sent from heaven to begin life as a human embryo and to be born of a maiden in Bethlehem as it was prophesied. He was born into the correct family in David's family line. He was no false prophet...his teachings continue to be upheld even to this day....but unfortunately not by Christendom.

Jesus did not change the law but he said he came to fulfill it and eliminate the curse that it was to the Jewish people. It condemned them every day of their lives. The principles embodied in the law were summed up with just two basic commands....to love God with ones whole being and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

If you are still under law, where are your sacrifices? Where is your temple? If things were not supposed to change until Messiah came, why did they?

Jesus said that the Pharisees' interpretation of the law was excessive and had become an unnecessary burden to the people. So it was not the law itself that Jesus changed, but the ridiculous interpretation that the Jewish leaders had placed on it. They were so overly concerned about nit picking the words that they forgot the spirit of the law that was never designed to cripple them spiritually.



Since Jesus did not come to introduce a different God, but to show his brothers how far removed their worship had become from what God gave them on Mt Sinai, Jesus did not break any laws, nor did he commit any sin. Jesus' description of the religious leaders of his day leave little room to feel any compassion for them or the sentence he passed on them.



Peace on earth was not to be expected straight away. Daniel saw a vision where Jesus was enthroned as king of God's kingdom. The scene was heavenly, not earthly. (Dan 7:13, 14)

It was foretold in Psalm 110:1-2...."The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”

God said to the Lord that he was to sit and wait for his "enemies to be made a footstool for his feet" so Messiah's return to heaven did not mean that his rulership would be instantaneous....he was to "rule in the midst of his enemies". I believe he is ruling right now. His enemies are certainly evident in the world at present.


Jesus was a mortal man in every way, or else he could not have been put to death. Humans can hardly kill God.



This is why God changed what it meant to be Jewish.....a son of Abraham. A circumcision of the heart, not the flesh.

According to Hosea...Hosea 2:23 “And I will say to those who were not My people,‘You are My people!’ And they will say, ‘You are my God!’”



2 Chron 24:20, 21; 1Kings 19:10; Jer 20:2; 37:15; 38:6

Even to disrespect a prophet of The Lord was a serious thing in the eyes of God.

2 Chronicles 36:15-16...."The Lord, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, until there was no remedy."

Jeremiah 7:25-28, 30, 33-34...."Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets, daily rising early and sending them. Yet they did not listen to Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck; they did more evil than their fathers. “You shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you; and you shall call to them, but they will not answer you. You shall say to them, ‘This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the Lord their God or accept correction; truth has perished and has been cut off from their mouth. For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight,” declares the Lord, “they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. The dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the sky and for the beasts of the earth; and no one will frighten them away. Then I will make to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride; for the land will become a ruin."

This is an appalling history considering the conditions for the covenant that Israel made with their God.

Exodus 19:3-8..."Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself. Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.” So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord had commanded him. All the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do!” And Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord."

It seems to me that God's promise to the Jews was conditional. God said they would 'become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, "IF" they obeyed their God and kept his covenant. The truth is, the didn't.

I would hope that you know enough by now that your points here could easily be refuted, but my, and the position of I'm sure many others here, is that I have no interest in debating these points your position really doesn't mean that much to us as long as you are a moral person as I'm quite certain you are. You can believe in whatever you want to believe about Jesus and even us Jews as long as you pretty much just leave us alone.

We really are not idiots, and we well know how to read what we wrote, and I do think it's pathetically condescending when someone comes around here and pretty much says that we're semi-literate dolts. But we see this happening so often that many of us, including yours truly, take the position that you can believe in whatever you want to believe-- just please leave us alone to believe in what we believe.

 

[Harmonious]

People have minds and I believe souls. Nations also have mind which would be law and soul which would be progress.

Okay. Kind of.

Joseph, Mary and Jesus resulted (evolved) because of Israel's obedience and disobedience to the promise of God. Also John. Thus Jesus is Israel personified.

Ah. No, I don't believe that Joseph and Mary were any part of a progression or evolution. They were just Jews.

Jesus is not Israel personified. I'm not sure why you would have me believe so.

I'm sure he's part of your belief system. I'm not at all sure if you are trying to convince me that he is part of mine.

 

[roger1440]

This is true. However, what are the metaphors referring to? That takes learning to decipher.

Some of the metaphors are more easily understood then others. Many times in Jewish scripture Israel is looked upon as God’s wife. The attraction is not one of opposites. It’s an attraction of likeness or sameness. Israel is required to be holy because God is holy. In other words, what joins the two is holiness. Once joined what would their offspring be? The canonical Gospels attempts to answer that very question.

Forget what you had been told what the Gospels mean. Read them for yourself. Read them as they we meant to be read, through a Jewish lens, not a Gentile lens. You may disagree with the message the authors are attempting to convey, but in order to do so, you first must know the message. The virgin birth is not about some hot Jewish chick getting knocked up by god.

14 You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.

15 Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth. (Malachi 2:14-15)

 

[Harmonious]

Ridiculous chauvinism.

Perhaps. But it says so.

No one says that you have to believe it. But if you believe in the sanctity in the Pentateuch, it's there for all to see.

 

[Harmonious]

Some of the metaphors are more easily understood then others. Many times in Jewish scripture Israel is looked upon as God’s wife. The attraction is not one of opposites. It’s an attraction of likeness or sameness. Israel is required to be holy because God is holy. In other words, what joins the two is holiness. Once joined what would their offspring be? The canonical Gospels attempts to answer that very question.

Forget what you had been told what the Gospels mean. Read them for yourself. Read them as they we meant to be read, through a Jewish lens, not a Gentile lens. You may disagree with the message the authors are attempting to convey, but in order to do so, you first must know the message. The virgin birth is not about some hot Jewish chick getting knocked up by god.

Roger, I did. A few years ago, someone on a different message board asked me to do just that. And so I did. Before I read the gospels, I used to respect Jesus as a teacher and a Rabbi who was, perhaps, a bit misguided.

After I read the gospels, I stopped reading, lest I have nothing but unbridled disgust for him. While he made one or two valid points, the rest... If I simply view Jesus' behavior and words as they are, through a Jewish lens, there is nothing good to say about him. He was insolent, threw temper tantrums, and verbally abused his own students. He emotionally abused a non-Jewish woman who asked for help removing a demon from her child. The more I read, the less I liked him.

And no metaphor is going to make Jesus a logical "next step" for Jewish belief.