G-D's Son Is Israel- Not Jesus

[2ndpillar]

And this does not refute what I wrote.

BTW, "lost sheep", when put into the scriptural context, does not refer to the lost tribes but instead to those whom Jesus believed were not following God's commands.

Dear metis,
With respect to Joel 2 & 3, based around the "day of the Lord" and those who escape (delivered), it refers to "when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem". On a separate note it refers to "Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations". Per Zechariah 11:14, the "brotherhood between Judah and Israel" has been broken. According to Ez 37, the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and represents the tribes of Israel, will be reunited with the stick of Judah. This after the stick of Israel has been taken out from among the nations. Israel is still among the nations, and Judah and Jerusalem are being restored, a restoration which was initiated during the 1st world war. Israel is still apart from Judah, and the "Christian" church would simply represent the "adulteress" of Hosea 3, who was bought for the equivalence of 30 pieces of silver, and who would be kept for "many days" before Israel will return.

 

[blessings38]

Exodus 4:22

Exodus - Chapter 4 (Parshah Shemot) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

22. And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel." '

No where in the Tanach will you find anything about jesus must less him being the son of G-D.

However, G-D explicitly says that his first born son is Israel.

Comments

Maybe it actually means the protection of Israel, because we all see what is going down. Israel the holy land needs protection.
I was raised Catholic, and Jesus was Jewish, so I am open minded and very interested in the Jewish religion.
In fact, I have questioned my religion many times, as most probably do. So many points I agree with in Judaism. I would love to learn more

 

[metis]

Dear metis,
With respect to Joel 2 & 3, based around the "day of the Lord" and those who escape (delivered), it refers to "when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem". On a separate note it refers to "Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations". Per Zechariah 11:14, the "brotherhood between Judah and Israel" has been broken. According to Ez 37, the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and represents the tribes of Israel, will be reunited with the stick of Judah. This after the stick of Israel has been taken out from among the nations. Israel is still among the nations, and Judah and Jerusalem are being restored, a restoration which was initiated during the 1st world war. Israel is still apart from Judah, and the "Christian" church would simply represent the "adulteress" of Hosea 3, who was bought for the equivalence of 30 pieces of silver, and who would be kept for "many days" before Israel will return.

"Israel" is a reference both to a nation and/or also to a people-- Jews. In that region of the world, name changes are quite common, and you even see it in your scriptures with Peter, for example. The name "Israel" itself pertains to a people who "struggle with God", so a country is not a necessary interpretation of the name. We refer to Jews all over the world as "Israel".

 

[Zen Sensei]

So you as a JW probably have inside knowledge, when is the end really gonna come? Or have you people stopped with your false end of the world predictions?

Also for us the Moshiach has yet to arrive.
Your Messiah died only to return "in a bit". This "in a bit" was almost 2000 years ago.
You are in no position to lecture us about that topic.

Because Bill O'riley can not explain the tide, so he concluded that nobody can either. What an arrogant ignoramus.

 

[Zen Sensei]

I really don't see what the point of this thread is. It's not like Christians and religious Jews are going to agree unless God intervenes and sets one or the other of us straight, so might as well drop it.

That is Riddick, staring Vin Diesil.

 

[2ndpillar]

"Israel" is a reference both to a nation and/or also to a people-- Jews. In that region of the world, name changes are quite common, and you even see it in your scriptures with Peter, for example. The name "Israel" itself pertains to a people who "struggle with God", so a country is not a necessary interpretation of the name. We refer to Jews all over the world as "Israel".

Dear metis,
The "Christians" also claim to be a spiritual Israel, yet that is a myth on their part. Judah is a tribe of Israel, and not Israel. Ephraim has inherited the title of Israel, and not Judah. Sloppy nomenclature only serves to mask the truth of the matter.

As to Israel being referred to as a nation on many of todays maps, this is simply in response to Scripture, such as in Psalms 83, whereas the nations will conspire to wipe out "Israel" as a nation. There have been efforts to remove Israel from the printed maps. The fact that the nations conspire to exterminate the nation state of Israel, is just a fore runner to them surrounding Jerusalem, and Jerusalem being pulled out of the fire by the Lord, who will reign over the whole world from Jerusalem (Ze 14). This after destroying the nations who have gone to war with Jerusalem by striking them with a plague, whereas their skin will rot off their bodies while they stand. (radiation poisoning)

 

[we-live-now]

Exodus 4:22

Exodus - Chapter 4 (Parshah Shemot) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

22. And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'So said the Lord, "My firstborn son is Israel." '

No where in the Tanach will you find anything about jesus must less him being the son of G-D.

However, G-D explicitly says that his first born son is Israel.

Comments

Ok, here's a crazy one. Get ready.

There are actually two "Israel's" just like everything else in scripture (but will become one). 1 Cor 12:13, Eph 2:15-16 One is the "shadow" version under law that we see naturally or outwardly (Hebrews 10:1) that came first and one is the "true substance" which is (still) hidden as it is purely spiritual and yet to "appear" outwardly. Col 2:17, John 1:17

One is the Israel of this world and one is the Israel of God.

And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God Gal 6:16

Both "Israel's" in the true realm of the spirit are spiritual BODIES but the one we know of as "Christ" is the 3rd generation of man or the generation of the (fleshly) body. This body first appeared in Genesis 3:21. Always pay close attention to the "numbers". (Spirit is first, soul is second, body is third) The great news is that in the 4th generation all will be returned to their pre-fall state according to the Lord's promise. Gen 15:16

Two "circumcisions"?

The "shadow" circumcision was outwardly of the fleshly outer man, but the true circumcision is of the inner man or the heart and is done by God himself. (Don't worry, God has a special group for those of the "outer" circumcision.)

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God Romans 2:28-29

and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions Col 2:11-13

Do you see it? Our current, natural bodies are "the flesh"... HIS flesh! It is all being circumcised or cut away by God. Our outer man is his "flesh". God speaks as though it is done and it is, but it has not yet "appeared" in the natural yet. We all still need to fully die. Our natural body is a fire offering.

This entire creation right now (both naturally and spiritually) is the "house" (body) of "Israel" both physically and spiritually. He will "take it off" and change his "robe" when all are "circumcised" by God. Hebrews 1:12 He is still dying (spiritually) though on the spiritual crucifixion which is our outer, natural man (body) under law. Through his death we are free. We are in his body. We are part of the "lamb of God" and we are actually carrying around in the body HIS DEATH. 2 Cor 4:10 Our death is part of his death. Remember, he is also the "LAST" Adam who is "Noah" and we are inside his "Ark" (body) right now as clean or unclean "animals" (the beast). He, the "Last Adam" or "Noah" took the same people into his spiritual body that were also in the "first" Adam. That's all people. But his body has "many parts". 1 Cor 12:12, Romans 12:4.

He is really still dying? Yes!

Study the original words in Matthew 27:42 and Mark 15:32 when he is in the cross. One word "nyn" reveals that he is still there "now"... the very present time. Remember, God's words are OUTSIDE of time and time is irrelevant to him. He decides when things "start" and when they "finish". That is why this current world is dying and will fully die and be made new. Romans 8:18-23. This current "Earth" is "the woman" ("Adam's"/Noah's wife) who will "die" and give (spiritual) birth to the new creation. Rev 12. Study the gender of "the Earth" in Genesis 1. Earth is a female.

Christians: "Jesus" is not a single, human man. He is an enormous spiritual man who is the Son of God and part of the actual soul of God the father himself sent below and the people were "baptized" into and given a new "name" and new birth.... HIS. His "name" (God's body) is 4 different parts. Study Jesus name in original words. You will find it is 4 separate, distinct words. This is the true "crucifixion"... his spiritual body being split into 4. The "4" are the 4 "rivers" and the 4 "types" of "living" (soul) creatures that the man in Gen 2:20 gave "names" to.

The most glorious part is that much of the NT has YET to occur in this realm and reality. It's all done in the higher realms of the spirit where the actual crucifixion took place. Rev 11:8 That is why those who believe and follow the OT struggle to believe Jesus is the son of God and the Christ. The law causes us to focus on outer vs. inner things.

I am sure this will sound like pure craziness if you never heard these things.

God bless,

 

[Whiterain]

Israel's first King was Jacob to my knowledge... Jacob was on a journey and YHWH saw him... YHWH liked him and challenged him to wrestle, and I can't gather anything substantial...

Jacob - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 'myths' continue to change. My first recalling the 'YHWH' had greeted 'Jacob' and admired him and challeneged him to wrestle, they wrestled for days - in the end (no clear victor) 'YHWH' entitled Jacob 'Israel' and the first King of that Land around him "Israel". That is only from vague memory, I do not study Judaism very often.

As far as 'Son' it seems to be an adoptive metaphor.

.... There's no need to hyphenate 'God' - it's a title and word, Not a name............

 

[Unification]

Dear metis,
With respect to Joel 2 & 3, based around the "day of the Lord" and those who escape (delivered), it refers to "when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem". On a separate note it refers to "Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations". Per Zechariah 11:14, the "brotherhood between Judah and Israel" has been broken. According to Ez 37, the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and represents the tribes of Israel, will be reunited with the stick of Judah. This after the stick of Israel has been taken out from among the nations. Israel is still among the nations, and Judah and Jerusalem are being restored, a restoration which was initiated during the 1st world war. Israel is still apart from Judah, and the "Christian" church would simply represent the "adulteress" of Hosea 3, who was bought for the equivalence of 30 pieces of silver, and who would be kept for "many days" before Israel will return.

Kingdom is within. Restoration of the human body. Divine Union with the Lord. Destruction of all evil within and the Lord reigning within. Nothing holy about land, and never was, and never will be. Unity with God internally, that's holy.

 

[Unification]

Ok, here's a crazy one. Get ready.

There are actually two "Israel's" just like everything else in scripture (but will become one). 1 Cor 12:13, Eph 2:15-16 One is the "shadow" version under law that we see naturally or outwardly (Hebrews 10:1) that came first and one is the "true substance" which is (still) hidden as it is purely spiritual and yet to "appear" outwardly. Col 2:17, John 1:17

One is the Israel of this world and one is the Israel of God.

And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God Gal 6:16

Both "Israel's" in the true realm of the spirit are spiritual BODIES but the one we know of as "Christ" is the 3rd generation of man or the generation of the (fleshly) body. This body first appeared in Genesis 3:21. Always pay close attention to the "numbers". (Spirit is first, soul is second, body is third) The great news is that in the 4th generation all will be returned to their pre-fall state according to the Lord's promise. Gen 15:16

Two "circumcisions"?

The "shadow" circumcision was outwardly of the fleshly outer man, but the true circumcision is of the inner man or the heart and is done by God himself. (Don't worry, God has a special group for those of the "outer" circumcision.)

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God Romans 2:28-29

and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions Col 2:11-13

Do you see it? Our current, natural bodies are "the flesh"... HIS flesh! It is all being circumcised or cut away by God. Our outer man is his "flesh". God speaks as though it is done and it is, but it has not yet "appeared" in the natural yet. We all still need to fully die. Our natural body is a fire offering.

This entire creation right now (both naturally and spiritually) is the "house" (body) of "Israel" both physically and spiritually. He will "take it off" and change his "robe" when all are "circumcised" by God. Hebrews 1:12 He is still dying (spiritually) though on the spiritual crucifixion which is our outer, natural man (body) under law. Through his death we are free. We are in his body. We are part of the "lamb of God" and we are actually carrying around in the body HIS DEATH. 2 Cor 4:10 Our death is part of his death. Remember, he is also the "LAST" Adam who is "Noah" and we are inside his "Ark" (body) right now as clean or unclean "animals" (the beast). He, the "Last Adam" or "Noah" took the same people into his spiritual body that were also in the "first" Adam. That's all people. But his body has "many parts". 1 Cor 12:12, Romans 12:4.

He is really still dying? Yes!

Study the original words in Matthew 27:42 and Mark 15:32 when he is in the cross. One word "nyn" reveals that he is still there "now"... the very present time. Remember, God's words are OUTSIDE of time and time is irrelevant to him. He decides when things "start" and when they "finish". That is why this current world is dying and will fully die and be made new. Romans 8:18-23. This current "Earth" is "the woman" ("Adam's"/Noah's wife) who will "die" and give (spiritual) birth to the new creation. Rev 12. Study the gender of "the Earth" in Genesis 1. Earth is a female.

Christians: "Jesus" is not a single, human man. He is an enormous spiritual man who is the Son of God and part of the actual soul of God the father himself sent below and the people were "baptized" into and given a new "name" and new birth.... HIS. His "name" (God's body) is 4 different parts. Study Jesus name in original words. You will find it is 4 separate, distinct words. This is the true "crucifixion"... his spiritual body being split into 4. The "4" are the 4 "rivers" and the 4 "types" of "living" (soul) creatures that the man in Gen 2:20 gave "names" to.

The most glorious part is that much of the NT has YET to occur in this realm and reality. It's all done in the higher realms of the spirit where the actual crucifixion took place. Rev 11:8 That is why those who believe and follow the OT struggle to believe Jesus is the son of God and the Christ. The law causes us to focus on outer vs. inner things.

I am sure this will sound like pure craziness if you never heard these things.

God bless,

That was beautiful .

 

[Flankerl]

Israel's first King was Jacob to my knowledge

No that was Saul.

 

[metis]

Dear metis,
The "Christians" also claim to be a spiritual Israel, yet that is a myth on their part. Judah is a tribe of Israel, and not Israel. Ephraim has inherited the title of Israel, and not Judah. Sloppy nomenclature only serves to mask the truth of the matter.

As to Israel being referred to as a nation on many of todays maps, this is simply in response to Scripture, such as in Psalms 83, whereas the nations will conspire to wipe out "Israel" as a nation. There have been efforts to remove Israel from the printed maps. The fact that the nations conspire to exterminate the nation state of Israel, is just a fore runner to them surrounding Jerusalem, and Jerusalem being pulled out of the fire by the Lord, who will reign over the whole world from Jerusalem (Ze 14). This after destroying the nations who have gone to war with Jerusalem by striking them with a plague, whereas their skin will rot off their bodies while they stand. (radiation poisoning)

You miss the point, namely name change, which is common in our tradition. "Israel" deals with a people since it is people that "struggle with God" or are "triumphant with God", depending on how one may translate it, which is somewhat variable. It is a people whom do this, and this struggle or being triumphant is not just in relationship to a country but to a people who sometimes struggle within ourselves.

I do think us Jews do know what we have been called and how this has sometimes changed over the centuries.

 

[we-live-now]

You miss the point, namely name change, which is common in our tradition. "Israel" deals with a people since it is people that "struggle with God" or are "triumphant with God", depending on how one may translate it, which is somewhat variable. It is a people whom do this, and this struggle or being triumphant is not just in relationship to a country but to a people who sometimes struggle within ourselves.

I do think us Jews do know what we have been called and how this has sometimes changed over the centuries.

I don't know what side this falls upon, but I wanted to point some things out and listen.

We have to study deeply what it means to be given a "name". The name "shem", the son of Noah means "name" (just as I am convinced "Ham" is the body and Japheth is the spirit) Do you see what these 3 make?

So, what is a name and where does it exist?

In our soul and body, right? A "name" is a partition of the soul and body, the lower realms of us. But, not the SPIRIT (which is our true self and true being... who we really "are"). For example, my name is "Duane", but that is not who I am in the true reality of the (hidden) spirit. In this body, I am merely "called" Duane. (I am sure you have some thoughts on that one!)

Jacob was "called" Israel. What is a "calling"? That was the spiritual "name" or "calling" that was given to him. It was his "calling" and it was a part of the soul (name) of God reserved for him specifically.

And God said unto him, “Thy name is Jacob; thy name shall not be called Jacob any more, but Israel shall be thy name”; and He called his name Israel Gen 35:10

He received this (spiritual) name after wrestling with the angel of God.

And he said, “Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.” Gen 32:28

Here is the million-dollar question: That was his name or "calling" after this time. But, was it who he WAS?

Did he stop being Jacob after he was "called" Israel?

Study the scriptures after these verses and see if Jacob disappears or not.

 

[2ndpillar]

Kingdom is within. Restoration of the human body. Divine Union with the Lord. Destruction of all evil within and the Lord reigning within. Nothing holy about land, and never was, and never will be. Unity with God internally, that's holy.

Dear uni,
There has been no "restoration of the human body" as regards the "Christian" church or its followers. They carry the same diseases, cancer, heart disease, etc, and most, as their leader Paul, hold to "serving.... the law of sin". (Romans 7:25). Their path leads to "destruction", and although they walk and talk, they are for the most part, the walking dead. Their only relief will come from the false hope that their demon possessed leader, will provide them with healthcare. They will still continue on with no "restoration of the human body", and they will still die.

The only ones entering the spiritual kingdom of heaven, are the children. The kingdom of God, when the kingdom will be ruled by a rod of iron, from Jerusalem, has yet to be inaugurated.

 

[Unification]

Dear uni,
There has been no "restoration of the human body" as regards the "Christian" church or its followers. They carry the same diseases, cancer, heart disease, etc, and most, as their leader Paul, hold to "serving.... the law of sin". (Romans 7:25). Their path leads to "destruction", and although they walk and talk, they are for the most part, the walking dead. Their only relief will come from the false hope that their demon possessed leader, will provide them with healthcare. They will still continue on with no "restoration of the human body", and they will still die.

The only ones entering the spiritual kingdom of heaven, are the children. The kingdom of God, when the kingdom will be ruled by a rod of iron, from Jerusalem, has yet to be inaugurated.

Respect your thoughts, pal. My head and heart have already been restored and are being restored, because my Lord has come to reign in my life by His Word.
While I agree, most professing Christians are in vain like every other religion, because they don't look within.

 

[Ingledsva]

The name 'Israel' according to the Jews, means "God rules", or "God shines"

​

ISIS
...

"God Shines" is appropriate, as he was a Sun God.

*

 

[metis]

I don't know what side this falls upon, but I wanted to point some things out and listen.

We have to study deeply what it means to be given a "name". The name "shem", the son of Noah means "name" (just as I am convinced "Ham" is the body and Japheth is the spirit) Do you see what these 3 make?

So, what is a name and where does it exist?

In our soul and body, right? A "name" is a partition of the soul and body, the lower realms of us. But, not the SPIRIT (which is our true self and true being... who we really "are"). For example, my name is "Duane", but that is not who I am in the true reality of the (hidden) spirit. In this body, I am merely "called" Duane. (I am sure you have some thoughts on that one!)


Jacob was "called" Israel. What is a "calling"? That was the spiritual "name" or "calling" that was given to him. It was his "calling" and it was a part of the soul (name) of God reserved for him specifically.

And God said unto him, “Thy name is Jacob; thy name shall not be called Jacob any more, but Israel shall be thy name”; and He called his name Israel Gen 35:10

He received this (spiritual) name after wrestling with the angel of God.

And he said, “Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.” Gen 32:28

Here is the million-dollar question: That was his name or "calling" after this time. But, was it who he WAS?

Did he stop being Jacob after he was "called" Israel?

Study the scriptures after these verses and see if Jacob disappears or not.

Being a Jewish naturalist, I really don't get into the mystical/spiritual stuff, which is why I also cannot get into Kabbalah. If you and some others here do, that's fine, but it just ain't my orientation.

 

[we-live-now]

Dear uni,
There has been no "restoration of the human body" as regards the "Christian" church or its followers. They carry the same diseases, cancer, heart disease, etc, and most, as their leader Paul, hold to "serving.... the law of sin". (Romans 7:25). Their path leads to "destruction", and although they walk and talk, they are for the most part, the walking dead. Their only relief will come from the false hope that their demon possessed leader, will provide them with healthcare. They will still continue on with no "restoration of the human body", and they will still die.

The only ones entering the spiritual kingdom of heaven, are the children. The kingdom of God, when the kingdom will be ruled by a rod of iron, from Jerusalem, has yet to be inaugurated.

It's a gigantic spiritual body of God himself and it's infinitely bigger than the "shadow" version we are now in (Hebrews 10:1) that is under law and death.

 

[we-live-now]

Respect your thoughts, pal. My head and heart have already been restored and are being restored, because my Lord has come to reign in my life by His Word.
While I agree, most professing Christians are in vain like every other religion, because they don't look within.

Agreed!

"Christianity" as we know it in every form I have seen is a religion (of the outer man's performance) just like all the others. It is for the outer part of his body that is still on the spiritual cross, dying and is about to be "cut away". This is the part that contains the self-righteous "Pharisees" of all religions which ultimately are those of "self-worship", "status", "fame", "wealth", "health", "self". They all point to and worship self and those blinded by them are still under law believing they have some righteousness based on their own performance ("bible study", "prayer", "church attendance", etc.). They are his FLESH and will BE circumcised away along with our outer man on the 8th spiritual day.

 

[RabbiO]

The name 'Israel' according to the Jews, means "God rules", or "God shines"

The statement is not true.