This sounds semantically vague. Isn't it fair for us to assume that in this thread, when you say "religion" you're committing at least to a definition like: "belief in a supernatural, controlling power"?
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Gaslighting Ourselves - Denying Our Own Religious Experiences
- Thread starter Quintessence
- Start date
This sounds semantically vague. Isn't it fair for us to assume that in this thread, when you say "religion" you're committing at least to a definition like: "belief in a supernatural, controlling power"?
No, on two fronts: (1) non-theistic religions exist, (2) a supernatural, controlling power is not a feature of all theistic religions. I suppose we can also add a third: (3) it would be a little silly for my own understanding of religion to exclude my own religious demographics (Unitarian Universalism, Paganism, Druidry).
Okay, what's your definition of religion? It strikes me that if you're going to make claims regarding religion, you ought to define it
Okay, what's your definition of religion? It strikes me that if you're going to make claims regarding religion, you ought to define it
Making "claims?" What? This is Interfaith Discussion, not a debate area.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Okay, what's your definition of religion? It strikes me that if you're going to make claims regarding religion, you ought to define it
There is as far as I can't tell one correct definition of religion. They are it seems different cultural constructs.
I'm not trying to debate, I'm trying to move the conversation forward. In the OP, your implication was that mystical experiences should be considered to be religious. I'm suggesting, that using normal definitions of "religion", that claim is too narrow, and it attributes to "religion" that which can have many other equally legitimate explanations.
That seems like a conversational "get out of jail free" card
In other words, a person can make claims about religion that are unfalsefiable because they won't commit to what they mean when they use the term.
That's not a good foundation to have a conversation
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Legitimate is debate. Now I want to debate your standards of that and challenge your view as per a debate. You now have burden of proof that you have legitimate reasons, so evidence.
When we discuss we state different views and leave it at that.
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mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
That seems like a conversational "get out of jail free" card
In other words, a person can make claims about religion that are unfalsefiable because they won't commit to what they mean when they use the term.
That's not a good foundation to have a conversation
Just google religion meaning and read a couple of the entries. Even try philosophy of religion.
Legitimate is debate. Now I want to debate your standards of that and challenge your view as per a debate. You now have burden of proof that you have legitimate reasons, so evidence.
When we discuss we state different views and leave it at that.
Hmmm.. We're on a debate and discussion website. Silly me, I assumed that "discussion" implied "meaningful discussion". How can we have meaningful discussions if the words we use are un-pin-downable ?
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
I did that, and @Quintessence disagreed.
So you used a standard dictionary, right?
Well, here are some other ones:
Religion - Wikipedia
religion | Definition, Types, Beliefs, Symbols, Examples, Importance, & Facts
Philosophy of Religion Online Text Textbook
The last one is a book about what the word religion could cover. It is a book, not a dictionary definition.
So let us discuss this. You use one definition. I understand that one. I use another. You understand that one. That is the end of it. We use different definitions.
I generally use the last 2 on my list.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
That is debate.
Meaningful discussion is not the same as debate. If the words you use have no defined meaning, then the discussion cannot be meaningful.
I agree that the term "religion" has many definitions. I remain optimistic that for the purposes of this meaningful discussion, @Quintessence will tell us what definition he had in mind for this thread.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, here is definition of religion that some people use even without mentioning it:
"Religion is the most intensive and comprehensive method of valuing that is experienced by humankind."
The Definition of Religion
In that sense we are all religious, because all the debates end in what really matters.
So you really what to debate what legitimately matters. Thus you are religious.
And so am I. But I still accept that that is not religion to you.
Well, here is definition of religion that some people use even without mentioning it:
"Religion is the most intensive and comprehensive method of valuing that is experienced by humankind."
The Definition of Religion
In that sense we are all religious, because all the debates end in what really matters.
So you really what to debate what legitimately matters. Thus you are religious.
Would you agree that discussions are about exchanging ideas?
If so, then what I'm saying is that in order to exchange ideas, we have to be willing to define the terms we're using. I'm not insisting on any definitions, I'm simply asking what definition @Quintessence is using, so that I can understand.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
You shouldn't have made it about legitimate. You could also accept that religion was undefined and left to the single reader to use her own one.
I get what you are doing. But here is the joke about correct definitions. For that we need the correct definitions of correct and definitions.
I'm not asking for "correct".
Reread my posts if that's not clear.I'm asking @Quintessence for the definition he's using - so that we can exchange ideas in a discussion forum
There's a normal definition of religion? I mean, I'm not really interested in that - whatever this "normal" definition is would be based on whatever the cultural norms and biases are where you happen to live. I specifically try to avoid that and have a more cross-cultural understanding. This is also part of why it would be rather hard for me to tell you how I define religion, because it depends on context and I broadly accept any and all understandings of religion to be culturally inclusive. The Wikipedia article linked to by @mikkel_the_dane is a decent enough start. Somewhere around here I have an old post outlining four things I considered hallmarks, but heck if I can find it... haha.
The short of it - religion is complicated, and so is defining it. That's why I remarked that whether or not one interprets mystical experiences as predating religion depends heavily on one's understanding of the term. Since I aim to be more cross-cultural and inclusive in how I understand religion, I'll tend to disagree with what you wrote but that doesn't really make you wrong either. You just have a different perspective on it.