Gaudiya Vaishnavism queries and discussion thread.

[Chakra]

On a more positive note, I really hope that I can visit Mayapur soon. The TOVP looks pretty amazing, and the presence of Vaishnavas will make it a lot better. Recently been seeing some videos on Mayapur and it looks so peaceful and enchanting.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Yes, I think too. I highly respect Kalyanji and his great devotion to Ramanujacharya and Maha-Visnu but it really hurts my heart when people come out of no-where and call our Sampradaya unauthentic without reading the works of our Goswamis and how the have established it. In all Sampradayas, the basis of Shastra is ultimately Guru. Anyway Kalyanji I offer my dandavats to you and your intense faith in your parampara.

I apologise to Kalyan ji and other Vaishnavs if I have offended them in anyway, and respectfully recede from this debate. I have no intention of being aggressive, but must respond if we are being attacked. This is a Gaudiya thread, so if you want we can discuss these matters else where. I would like to finish with a Vaishnav Vandana written by Srila Devakinandan das Thakur:

1) vrndavana-vasi jata vaisnavera gana
prathame vandana kari sabara carana

2) nilacala-vasi jata mahaprabhura gana
bhumite podiya vandon sabara carana

3) navadvipa-vasi jata mahaprabhura bhakta
sabara carana vandon haiya anurakta

4) mahaprabhura bhakta jata gauda-dese sthiti
sabara carana vandon kariya pranati

5) je-dese je-dese baise gaurangera gana
urdhva-bahu kari vandon sabara carana

6) haiyachena haibena prabhura jata dasa
sabara carana vandon dante kari’ ghasa

7) brahmanda tarite sakti dhare jane jane
e veda purane guna gaya jeva sune

8) mahaprabhura gana saba patita-pavana
tai lobhe mui papi lainu sarana

9) vandana karite mui kata sakti dhari
tamo-buddhi-dose mui dambha matra kari

10) tathapi mukera bhagya manera ullasa
dosa ksami’ mo-adhame kara nija-dasa

11) sarva-vashcha siddhi haya yama-bandha chute
jagate durlabha haiya prema-dhana lute

12) manera vasana purna acirate haya
devakinandana dasa ei lobhe kaya

(1) First of all I offer glorifications to the feet of all of the Vaisnavas of Vrndavana.

(2) Praising of all of Mahaprabhu’s Nilacala associates, I prostrate at their feet.

(3) I pray for loving attachment to the lotus feet of all of Mahaprabhu’s Navadvipa bhaktas.

(4) I offer pranamas at the feet of all of Mahaprabhu’s Gaudadesa (Bengal) devotees.

(5) With upraised arms I pray to the feet of all of Gauranga’s bhaktas, in whichever country they may reside.

(6) Holding a straw between my teeth, I submit at the feet of all the servants of Mahaprabhu that were or will be.

(7) I have heard their glorification in the Vedas and Puranas, which proclaim that each one of His devotees has the sakti to deliver an entire universe.

(8) (Hearing of their glory) I have come with great eagerness to surrender to Mahaprabhu’s bhaktas, who are all patita-pavana for sinners like me.

(9) What power do I have to glorify them? But out of my ignorance and un-mitigating pride I do so anyway, thinking myself so qualified.

(10) Even though I am dumb and unable to express their greatness, still my heart is joyful due to my great good fortune (that the Vaisnavas have accepted me as their own and Sri Gurudeva has given me harinama full of blissful pastimes). Forgive the faults of this fallen soul and make me your servant.

(11) They award the perfection of all desires, including freedom from death, and even that rarest treasure not found in this world – prema!

(12) All of one’s pure, heartfelt desires will be fulfilled without delay. Devaki-nandana dasa, intensely eager for this, glorifies and prays to the Vaisnavas.

On a more positive note, I really hope that I can visit Mayapur soon. The TOVP looks pretty amazing, and the presence of Vaishnavas will make it a lot better. Recently been seeing some videos on Mayapur and it looks so peaceful and enchanting.

Nitai! That is very nice to hear I think Mayapura was flooded recently, so it was wonderful to see Ganga Maa herself emerge to wash the Lotus Feet of the Lord's Vigrahas

 

[Chakra]

Indeed. Whether we are Vaishanvas from Sri Rangam, Tirumala, Udupi, Mayapura, Mathura-Vrindavana, etc, we all worship the same God. That's pretty exciting for me; I love it when people from different backgrounds and cultures come together.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

Srimati Radharani can be found in Bhagavatam, but in a very hidden form. She is very very confidential, so Suka-Deva Goswami was very careful not to reveal Her directly.

With all due respect, does this argument appear logical?

1. Radha is not mentioned in *any* scripture that is dated prior to the 12th Century CE.
2. No scholar of repute (or otherwise) before this time, interpreted any Vedic/Puranic text to identify a character named Radha.
3. None of the well known Vaishnava traditions that have been in existence before Gaudiya Vaishnavism make a mention of Radha.
4. There is nothing confidential about Radha today. Why was she held confidential until the 12th Century, after when her knowledge became public? What was that turning event that caused the change?

Isn't it far more reasonable therefore, that Radha is a later deity, who came into prominence in Eastern India during the 12th Century CE? Chaitanya lived in the same region and therefore it is quite natural that she would become a big part of his new doctrine.

 

[निताइ dasa]

With all due respect, does this argument appear logical?

1. Radha is not mentioned in *any* scripture that is dated prior to the 12th Century CE.
2. No scholar of repute (or otherwise) before this time, interpreted any Vedic/Puranic text to identify a character named Radha.
3. None of the well known Vaishnava traditions that have been in existence before Gaudiya Vaishnavism make a mention of Radha.
4. There is nothing confidential about Radha today. Why was she held confidential until the 12th Century, after when her knowledge became public? What was that turning event that caused the change?

Isn't it far more reasonable therefore, that Radha is a later deity, who came into prominence in Eastern India during the 12th Century CE? Chaitanya lived in the same region and therefore it is quite natural that she would become a big part of his new doctrine.

I am reluctant to enter into a discussion concerning the dating of certain Scriotures. That is not how we Gaudiyas deem something as authoritative or not. Rather, all scripture is eternal, and may appear or disappear according to the will of Lord Hari. Yes Radharani may have been revealed later, but that does not mean that Her presence is an imagination or fake. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is concidered by Gaudiyas as Sri Krsna Himself (and there are injunctions to prove this) and therefore only after He descends (12 century) does the very confidential knowledge about Radharani become manifest. That is one of His reasons to descend, to bestow unotta-ujwala rasa (Radha-like Prema) on the fallen souls, To us Radha's presence is always eternal, the question is when she is revealed. A scripture could be revealed yesterday, yet if it is manifested by someone who is self realized, then to us it is deemed authoritative. In-fact of the sruti Veda Vyasa ji compiled, only a very small portion is available to us now. What is to say that Radharani is not within the remaining? It is also equally logical that Radharani's presence was made known after the descend of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. For us, Vedanta gradually evolves and develops until it reaches the fully fruitified form of Acintya Bhedabheda of Lord Chaitanya. Again we cannot accept the writings of our previous Acharayas (as well as many educated and scholarly personalities like Goswamis and Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya) as imagination. Reason must always be submissive to Sabda.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Better respect"? Shiva is a parama Vaishnava in Vaishnava theology, and the second greatest deva (behind Brahma).

That is not respect enough. Behind Brahma, that is a second insult. And all that for a foreign God.

Vishnu assumes 8 avataras during sagara mathanam.

Vishnu does not assume 8 avataras. They were eight regional indigenous Gods whom the Aryans appropriated in Vishnu.

 

[kalyan]

With all due respect, does this argument appear logical?

1. Radha is not mentioned in *any* scripture that is dated prior to the 12th Century CE.
2. No scholar of repute (or otherwise) before this time, interpreted any Vedic/Puranic text to identify a character named Radha.
3. None of the well known Vaishnava traditions that have been in existence before Gaudiya Vaishnavism make a mention of Radha.
4. There is nothing confidential about Radha today. Why was she held confidential until the 12th Century, after when her knowledge became public? What was that turning event that caused the change?

Isn't it far more reasonable therefore, that Radha is a later deity, who came into prominence in Eastern India during the 12th Century CE? Chaitanya lived in the same region and therefore it is quite natural that she would become a big part of his new doctrine.

..Yes ofcourse Radha can be viewed as one of numerous Gopis. Brahma vaivarta purana talks about radha but it is a rAjasa purana...

Anyway Radha can be viewed as LOVE personified gopi, prema tattwam for who knows what little Krushna did

 

[kalyan]

I am reluctant to enter into a discussion concerning the dating of certain Scriotures. That is not how we Gaudiyas deem something as authoritative or not. Rather, all scripture is eternal, and may appear or disappear according to the will of Lord Hari. Yes Radharani may have been revealed later, but that does not mean that Her presence is an imagination or fake. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is concidered by Gaudiyas as Sri Krsna Himself (and there are injunctions to prove this) and therefore only after He descends (12 century) does the very confidential knowledge about Radharani become manifest. That is one of His reasons to descend, to bestow unotta-ujwala rasa (Radha-like Prema) on the fallen souls, To us Radha's presence is always eternal, the question is when she is revealed. A scripture could be revealed yesterday, yet if it is manifested by someone who is self realized, then to us it is deemed authoritative. In-fact of the sruti Veda Vyasa ji compiled, only a very small portion is available to us now. What is to say that Radharani is not within the remaining? It is also equally logical that Radharani's presence was made known after the descend of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. For us, Vedanta gradually evolves and develops until it reaches the fully fruitified form of Acintya Bhedabheda of Lord Chaitanya. Again we cannot accept the writings of our previous Acharayas (as well as many educated and scholarly personalities like Goswamis and Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya) as imagination. Reason must always be submissive to Sabda.

Nitai dAsa when you open a thread, you are going to get some heat ...Anyway I would be out of this thread now for good as I feel it is unnecessary side tracked from main things...Our main goal hari nAma sankeertana which could release us from thi samsAra should not be deviated with unnecessary discussions

Jai rAdha Jai Sri Krushna

Adiyen rAmanuja daasa
Hare Krushna

 

[Terese]

So considering this 'did Radha exist or not' sub debate, Do Sri Vaishnavas not worship Radha?

 

[Chakra]

So considering this 'did Radha exist or not' sub debate, Do Sri Vaishnavas not worship Radha?

Nope.

 

[Terese]

Nope.

But where there is a murti of Krishna at a temple, Radha is by his side. We just ignore her?

 

[Chakra]

But where there is a murti of Krishna at a temple, Radha is by his side. We just ignore her?

No, worshiping her is not a problem. She just isn't worshiped a lot, just like how Parashurama isn't worshiped a lot (but both are a part of Vaishnavism). Besides, I don't think Shri Vaishnavas consider Radha to be a legitimate goddess, perhaps just a gopi.

 

[निताइ dasa]

No, worshiping her is not a problem. She just isn't worshiped a lot, just like how Parashurama isn't worshiped a lot (but both are a part of Vaishnavism). Besides, I don't think Shri Vaishnavas consider Radha to be a legitimate goddess, perhaps just a gopi.

Yes, meanwhile for us Gaudiyas, Radharani is the ultimate shelter. We don't even worship Krsna unless it is under Her guidance. Such is Her position in our Sampradaya.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am an atheist so I do not really worship any God or Goddess, but I respect mythology. I respect Srimati Radharani also. It is nice to be emotionally attached to Gods or Goddesses if it propels anyone towards good deeds. But the respect should be extended to all. If it goes overboard then I start loosing respect.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Shantanu ji

The truth has to be known: the nature of the lord has to be known for certain.

jai jai , ...yes those that want to know the Lord will eventualy know him and thus realise the Truth in its entirity , ... ...but also we must remember that the Lord himself is unlimited therefore very difficult for us limeted beings to understand , ...at least in his fullness , .....

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Kalyan ji

i dont think there is any point now as it became clear to me now that gaudiyas have written their own theories except bhagawatham (which actually has no chracter radha) and BG and they have no valid authoritative backing.......That is why the 3 pramAnic acharya lineage should not be diverted with imo (Trio of Shankara, Ramanuja and madhva) because their word never crossed even a single letter of vedam ) to accomodate newer stuff possibly from isckon. They say Krushna created Vishnu which is directly against vedic scritures

May I refer back to a few simple quotes from the Gita , .....

''Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.'' Ch , ...7 v ..3

similarly even if it were revealed even in Shastra ''hardly one ''would see it , ...

''O son of Pṛthā, know that I am the original seed of all existences, the intelligence of the intelligent, and the prowess of all powerful men.'' ....v ..10

....being the seed of all existance , he may and dose enact his own pastimes with his eternal associates who are none other than expansions of his own being , ....

''All states of being—be they of goodness, passion or ignorance—are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything—but I am independant. I am not under the modes of this material nature''. ..v ..12

''Deluded by the three modes [goodness, passion and ignorance], the whole world does not know Me who am above the modes and inexhaustible''. ..v ..13

thus being both independant and inexaustable , .....how can we say what he is not or seek to validate his pastimes , .....therefore we should not even utter Sri Radhikas name unless it is in praise , if we have no taste for this lila we should remain silent or beg for the mercy to understand it , ......

 

[Shantanu]

namaskaram Shantanu ji



jai jai , ...yes those that want to know the Lord will eventualy know him and thus realise the Truth in its entirity , ... ...but also we must remember that the Lord himself is unlimited therefore very difficult for us limeted beings to understand , ...at least in his fullness , .....

We only need to know the truth on what we should do to survive in dignity given that evil is also part of Nature. When our life lived to this perfection is over we die happy that we took the right decisions in our lives. Awareness of God as a Guide seems to give me the right thoughts for my actions.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Today is the disappearance day of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada, who to us is Jagad Guru. It was He who established the devotional conception of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in India via the 64 Gaudiya Maths. On this day I pray to him to always keep us under His lotus feet. I would like to post the last words he spoke before He left this world:

The last message of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur before His disappearance on 23 December, 1936 at Sri Gaudiya Math, Bagbazar, Calcutta.

"I have given trouble to many persons. As I have been compelled to speak the undeceitful truth, and have urged persons to worship God (Sri Hari) sincerely without deceitfulness, many persons may even have considered me to be their enemy. By inspiring them to be eagerly devoted to Sri Krishna sincerely without ulterior desires and deceitfulness, they will someday be able to understand why I have given trouble to them.

All should propagate the teachings of Sri Rupa and Raghunatha with great enthusiasm. Our highest and ultimate goal of life is to become the holy dust-particles of all the devoted successors of Srila Rupa Goswami. All of you should remain intimately united with whole-hearted allegiance to the Grace-Incarnate-Form-Gurudeva-(the Absolute Counterpart of the Supreme Lord) with the purpose of propitiating Him, Who is identical with Absolute Undivided Knowledge. All should live in this most perishable world somehow within limited means only for the object of worshipping Sri Hari. Don't give up Haribhajan in spite of hundreds of calamities, hundreds of scoldings and hundreds of harassments. Don't be disheartened to see that most of the conditioned souls of the world are not adoring the message of unadulterated pure devotion to Sri Krishna. Don't give up hearing and chanting 'Krishna-katha' (the glories of Sri Krishna- His Name-Form-Attributes-Pastimes), which is the life and only wealth of a true devotee. Always chant Harinam being humbler than a blade of grass and more forbearing than tree.

We cherish the desire of dedicating this body, which is equal to an inert mass of matter, a product of the material energy of the Lord, for oblation to Sankirtan-yajna of Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu along with His personal associates. We are not desirous of getting the worldly name and fame of becoming a renowned man of action (Karmabir), or a god of piety (Dharmabir), but rather, we want to be the dust of the lotus feet of Srila Rupa Goswami, which is our actual wealth and our 'be-all and end-all'. The pure devotional channel of the flow of succession of Srila Bhakti Vinode Thakur will never be stopped. All of you should take the vow of propagating this pure devotional flow of thought with more earnestness and perseverance to fulfil the desire of Srila Bhakti Vinode Thakur. Amongst you there are many deserving proficient persons who are competent to do this-

We pray repeatedly by holding grass between our teeth- 'We only want to be the dust particles of the lotus feet of Sri Rupa Goswami in every birth'.

As long as we are in the grip of the shackles of non-eternal relations of this world prison-house, there will be, inevitably, numerous inconveniences and difficulties but we should neither be infatuated by those discomfitures nor should we think that our object of life is only to endeavour to remove disadvantages. It is necessary for us to have a clear conception of what our objective will be during our very existence in this world and how our eternal life will be after the removal of all worldly drawbacks and difficulties. It is also expedient that we should have a solution for whatever problems we face in this world in regard to attraction and repulsion, that is to say, whatever we want and whatever we do not want. As much as we shall remain aloof from the Lotus Feet of Sri Krishna, as much will be the grip of worldly attractions and repulsions. We can realise the transcendental sweetness of the loving service of Sri Krishna when we are eligible to perform chanting of the transcendental Holy Name- 'Sri Krishna' that is beyond the domain of worldly attraction and repulsion. Krishna-katha apparently seems startling and perplexing. All so-called human beings are struggling more or less, knowingly or unknowingly, to eliminate obstacles causing hindrance to our realisation of the Eternal Objective. Our only necessity is to have access into the Blissful Transcendental Abode, transcending all feelings of conflict.

We have no attachment or detachment to anybody in this world. All arrangements in this world are momentary. It is essential for everybody to get the Highest Objective- Absolute Bliss. Let all of you be blessed by getting the service of the Original Absolute Counterpart- Grace Incarnate Form of the Supreme Lord by means of the attributes of one-pointed devotion and concord. Let the holy stream of the sacred devotional thought of the associates of Srila Rupa Goswami continue to flow uninterruptedly. We should never be indifferent under any circumstances to Sri Krishna Sankirtan-yajna, which can bestow sevenfold principal attainments. When there will manifest increasing devout devotion to Sankirtan, we will achieve all attainments. Let all of you propagate the teachings of Sri Rupa-Raghunatha with great enthusiasm and undaunted spirit, taking absolute shelter of the personal associates of Sri Rupa Goswami

Fix an ultimate goal for your life. Decide where you will have to go and what you will have to do, so that your soul will be happy. Don't go towards material enterprises. One day this mundane body will become old and, poisoned by many diseases, it will then be finished. Yet, at that time, if you have given your body to Krsna for His service, your life will be a success. Offer this very wretched body to Krsna."

Saying this, his mood changed and his face became reddish. Then he spoke the following verse:

yasyah kadapi vasanancala-khelanottha-
dhanyati-dhanya-pavanena krtartha-mani
yogindra-durgama-gatir madhusudano 'pi
tasya namo 'stu vrsabhanu-bhuvo dise 'pi

"Obeisances to the direction that faces Sri Vrsabhanu's daughter (Radha). When the breeze coming from that direction playfully moves the edge of His garment, Lord Krsna, who cannot be attained by even the kings of the yogis, thinks that His life has now become a great success."
(Sri Radha-rasa-suddha-nidhi, text 2)

 

[Asha]

Hare Krishna निताइ dasa ji

All glories to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada

Thank you for most appropriate post in this auspicious day, l read it with absolute joy

All glories to the assembled devotees, to the Gaudiya Vaisnavas, the Sri Vaisnavas and to Aupmanyav ji, greatof lord Rama of Gopal ji and Bharat Mata,

and to all here that I do not yet know.

Hari Bol

 

[Aupmanyav]

:Hari Bol:

After seeing Lord Rama, Mother Sita worshiped Mother Gauri so that she might have Lord Rama as her husband.

Lord Krishna was married to Mother Rukmini at Harsiddhi Mata (Gauri) temple near Porbandar. (Harsiddhi - getting the pleasure of Lord Shiva).

Janak Mahal, Harsiddhi Mata temple

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