Gay adoption is good for children

[Autodidact]

I haven't been involved in this thread but while skimming I wanted to pop in and back up starfish. It's a difficult subject to debate when people have such different life experiences. But in my own experiences I have concluded that many, not all, negative issues in peoples lives come down to the absence of a father or a mother. From what I've seen I could never say that they are interchangeable. I do believe that men and women are different, for the most part, and always will be. That leads me to conclude the importance of both.

So you know quite a few adults who were raised in lesbian or gay families then?

 

[Autodidact]

I know a gay couple. They don't have children. Very nice people.

So, like Scott, your views on gay and lesbian families are also unencumbered by the facts? That is, you are not familiar with the research, and do not know any gay or lesbian families with children, but nevertheless think that your personal opinions on the matter, based on your religious views, should have some weight?

 

[Autodidact]

Starfish, I agree with you, but to be fair, Thomas Jefferson did not want religion and politics to be used together. He believed in a total seperation of church and state. You're doing a good job though.

Just do it in a different thread; it is irrelevant to this one.

 

[Autodidact]

I, on the other hand, do know a few young adults raised in gay and lesbian families. Of particular relevance to this thread would be C, whom I've known since she was adopted as an infant from India. She's now 22 and just graduated from our local state university as a landscape designer. Of course, she's exceptional because her moms were so outstanding and dedicated. S stayed at home with her until kindergarten, and, considering they didn't have much money, gave her every possible music and dancing lesson, because that was her thing. Also sports. She's a lovely young woman, both kind and responsible, and doing well in general. I don't think she would have traded her moms for a mom and a dad, just because they were such good parents. I always felt inadequate in comparison. I should give them a call and see how they're doing.

 

[rheff78]

Auto, you posted in an earlier post that you raise your children better than the average straight couple. What's your basis on that? I guess my question is, what makes your being gay good for the child. Please keep in mind I'm not trying to attack you personally, but since you seem to be the biggest advocate of this, I'm just interested in your opinion.

 

[Starfish]

So, like Scott, your views on gay and lesbian families are also unencumbered by the facts? That is, you are not familiar with the research, and do not know any gay or lesbian families with children, but nevertheless think that your personal opinions on the matter, based on your religious views, should have some weight?

As I have said repeatedly, I don't doubt that gay couples can create loving families. I don't doubt the children are well-adjusted. I know better than to lump gay families in with single-parent families, statistically.

But I've seen enough good fathers to know, that in addition to good mothers, they are important. "Give me research!" you say. Research that a dad is important? Do I need research that a mother is important too?

Last night around our dinner table, the men were talking about pinewood derby races, sports cars, and planning a guy-trip out to a ranch to go shooting. My sons loved it! Somehow a trip to go shooting with their mom wouldn't be the same. My husband was a scoutmaster for a while. He took our boys camping in snowcaves, canoeing, deep-sea fishing, eating gross stuff they cooked over a fire, and much more than I can remember. They've gone on extended bike-rides, snow skiing down suicide runs, white-water rafting and windsurfing. Now it's possible I could have pulled up my bootstraps and done this stuff with them, but I wouldn't have loved it like their dad did, nor been any good at most of it. He has taught them woodworking, and repair skills that he learned from his dad, who learned it from his dad. And several times a son would seek out his dad, to quietly, privately talk about a concern, something he couldn't talk with Mom about. When my youngest son left for two years to be a missionary in a remote land, his older brother (who had previously been a missionary) told him: "When you have hard times, write it to me or Dad. Don't tell Mom, she'll worry too much."
This is my research.
I'm the one who has dinner ready when they get home, and keep the home a place to want to come to. I remember the birthdays, write the letters, create the Christmases, and all the other holidays, keep the drawers stocked in clean clothes, keep the fridge stock in food, and give advice on their girlfriend problems--"because they don't understand women" as they say. My job is to kiss the hurts and shed the tears with them. I'd much rather be home doing the laundry than sleeping in a snowcave and am glad their dad is willing to do it.
I also get to melt with joy, when I behold my children, now adults, each firm in who they are and their importance in this world.

My sons have learned to treat their wives respectfully, because of how they saw their dad treat me. My daughter has chosen a husband who also treats her respectfully because of what she learned at home. To grow up with a loving, involved man for a father is priceless for a child. It's a legacy they pass down generation to generation. They grow up knowing first hand that men are good, compassionate, gentle, strong, wise, lovable, capable, a little clumsy sometimes, but irreplaceable. Just as women are irreplaceable.

 

[Smoke]

Last night around our dinner table, the men were talking about pinewood derby races, sports cars, and planning a guy-trip out to a ranch to go shooting. My sons loved it! Somehow a trip to go shooting with their mom wouldn't be the same. My husband was a scoutmaster for a while. He took our boys camping in snowcaves, canoeing, deep-sea fishing, eating gross stuff they cooked over a fire, and much more than I can remember. They've gone on extended bike-rides, snow skiing down suicide runs, white-water rafting and windsurfing. Now it's possible I could have pulled up my bootstraps and done this stuff with them, but I wouldn't have loved it like their dad did, nor been any good at most of it. He has taught them woodworking, and repair skills that he learned from his dad, who learned it from his dad. This is my research.

Do all good fathers take their kids camping, shooting, etc.? Is that the kind of thing that makes or breaks a father? Are there no good mothers who do that kind of thing?

I'm the one who has dinner ready when they get home, and keep the home a place to want to come to. I create the Christmases, and all the other holidays, keep the drawers stocked in clean clothes, keep the fridge stock in food, and give advice on their girlfriend problems--"because they don't understand women" as they say. My job is to kiss the hurts and shed the tears with them.

Do all good mothers do those kinds of thing? Is that the definition of a good mother? Are those the kinds of things a good father would never do?

I'd much rather be home doing the laundry than sleeping in a snowcave and am glad their dad is willing to do it.

Exactly. You both bring your strengths and weaknesses, your likes and dislikes, to child-rearing. All couples do. But you haven't listed anything your husband does that couldn't be done by many women, or anything you do that couldn't be done by many men.

For instance, you dislike the outdoors stuff, but a lot of women love it -- especially, a lot of lesbians love that kind of thing. But not just lesbians. My grandmother and my great-grandmother were both avid outdoorswomen; in fact, when I was in the Boy Scouts, they scoffed when they learned the Boy Scout camp had a bathhouse. We were too soft, they said; they always dug their own latrines.

 

[Francine]

For instance, you dislike the outdoors stuff, but a lot of women love it -- especially, a lot of lesbians love that kind of thing.

And we'd steal away every chance we could
To the backroom, the alley, the trusty woods
I used her she used me
But neither one cared
We were getting our share
Workin' on our night moves...

 

[Starfish]

MidnightBlue, you missed part of what I wrote.

 

[Smoke]

MidnightBlue, you missed part of what I wrote.

No, I didn't miss it. Do you seriously think that a same-sex couple can't show by example how to treat one's spouse in a loving and respectful manner?

 

[kdrier]

Great post Starfish. My family is set up the same way, and has been for generations. Me and my drink beer together and chill in the garage all the time. Also with my brothers we chop down trees with chainsaws and chop wood to keep our house warm, just work around the house in general, while my mom cooks, cleans, and does laundary, and always has good advice to give. I wouldn't trade in my dad for twenty moms, or my mom for twenty dads. It's the perfect balance. My girlfriend recently moved in, and she makes an excellent team with my mother, it's an amazing feeling.

But as far as arguing with the lesbians and gays, you're wasting your time and breath, trust me, it's a mission impossible. Our experience and opinion is irrelevent on this subject, lol.

 

[Smoke]

But as far as arguing with the lesbians and gays, you're wasting your time and breath, trust me, it's a mission impossible. Our experience and opinion is irrelevent on this subject, lol.

The difference is that I'm not generalizing from my own experience to tell you how to live your life. I don't have any problem with your arranging your life as you see fit, but I do have a huge problem with your attempting to arrange my life as you see fit.

It has been shown repeatedly that adoption by same-sex children is good for children. The best response you and Starfish can come up with is (1) "We don't believe in that" and (2) "That's not how we do things."

That is to say, you haven't produced the slightest rational or objective support for your position.

 

[McBell]

The difference is that I'm not generalizing from my own experience to tell you how to live your life. I don't have any problem with your arranging your life as you see fit, but I do have a huge problem with your attempting to arrange my life as you see fit.

It has been shown repeatedly that adoption by same-sex children is good for children. The best response you and Starfish can come up with is (1) "We don't believe in that" and (2) "That's not how we do things."

That is to say, you haven't produced the slightest rational or objective support for your position.

You do realize that you may well hurt their feelings with all this truth and logic, right?

 

[mr.guy]

Our experience and opinion is irrelevent on this subject, lol.

Your experience is one-sided, and opinion based stunted reasoning; that's not funny.

 

[Mike182]

Great post Starfish. My family is set up the same way, and has been for generations. Me and my drink beer together and chill in the garage all the time. Also with my brothers we chop down trees with chainsaws and chop wood to keep our house warm, just work around the house in general, while my mom cooks, cleans, and does laundary, and always has good advice to give. I wouldn't trade in my dad for twenty moms, or my mom for twenty dads. It's the perfect balance. My girlfriend recently moved in, and she makes an excellent team with my mother, it's an amazing feeling.

But as far as arguing with the lesbians and gays, you're wasting your time and breath, trust me, it's a mission impossible. Our experience and opinion is irrelevent on this subject, lol.

no one is denying this!!!! all we are saying is that this is not the only style of family unit that can bring joy to people. is that really so hard to understand?

 

[Autodidact]

Auto, you posted in an earlier post that you raise your children better than the average straight couple. What's your basis on that? I guess my question is, what makes your being gay good for the child. Please keep in mind I'm not trying to attack you personally, but since you seem to be the biggest advocate of this, I'm just interested in your opinion.

I don't know that it's so much that I'm a lesbian--well, that might be part of it, just in that I had to go through so much to get them. It took me two years to get pregnant with my oldest, and probably the same amount of time to adopt the youngest. (I have 3 in all.) I was over 30 when I got pregnant, and had lived with and helped take care of young kids a lot. Before I even tried to get pregnant, I made sure I had a house, a car, a partner, a washer and a dryer. And a job. I've read a lot, and educated myself about kids and parenting. I take the job both seriously and humorously.

Remember, when calculating the "average" straight parents, you have to include not only your Leave it to Beaver image, but also the teenagers, the unwed moms, the fourth kid born to a family that can't afford the 3 they have, and so forth. Whatever else you might think about gay and lesbian parents, we don't come to it by accident. Every child in a a gay or lesbian family is a wanted child. And that makes a huge difference.

 

[Autodidact]

As I have said repeatedly, I don't doubt that gay couples can create loving families. I don't doubt the children are well-adjusted. I know better than to lump gay families in with single-parent families, statistically.

But I've seen enough good fathers to know, that in addition to good mothers, they are important. "Give me research!" you say. Research that a dad is important? Do I need research that a mother is important too?

Last night around our dinner table, the men were talking about pinewood derby races, sports cars, and planning a guy-trip out to a ranch to go shooting. My sons loved it! Somehow a trip to go shooting with their mom wouldn't be the same. My husband was a scoutmaster for a while. He took our boys camping in snowcaves, canoeing, deep-sea fishing, eating gross stuff they cooked over a fire, and much more than I can remember. They've gone on extended bike-rides, snow skiing down suicide runs, white-water rafting and windsurfing. Now it's possible I could have pulled up my bootstraps and done this stuff with them, but I wouldn't have loved it like their dad did, nor been any good at most of it. He has taught them woodworking, and repair skills that he learned from his dad, who learned it from his dad. And several times a son would seek out his dad, to quietly, privately talk about a concern, something he couldn't talk with Mom about. When my youngest son left for two years to be a missionary in a remote land, his older brother (who had previously been a missionary) told him: "When you have hard times, write it to me or Dad. Don't tell Mom, she'll worry too much."
This is my research.
I'm the one who has dinner ready when they get home, and keep the home a place to want to come to. I remember the birthdays, write the letters, create the Christmases, and all the other holidays, keep the drawers stocked in clean clothes, keep the fridge stock in food, and give advice on their girlfriend problems--"because they don't understand women" as they say. My job is to kiss the hurts and shed the tears with them. I'd much rather be home doing the laundry than sleeping in a snowcave and am glad their dad is willing to do it.
I also get to melt with joy, when I behold my children, now adults, each firm in who they are and their importance in this world.

My sons have learned to treat their wives respectfully, because of how they saw their dad treat me. My daughter has chosen a husband who also treats her respectfully because of what she learned at home. To grow up with a loving, involved man for a father is priceless for a child. It's a legacy they pass down generation to generation. They grow up knowing first hand that men are good, compassionate, gentle, strong, wise, lovable, capable, a little clumsy sometimes, but irreplaceable. Just as women are irreplaceable.

So your research is your family? Do you honestly believe that your family is somehow doing a better job than mine? Do you want to hear about my kids yet? Or do you prefer to only know one side of the story?

Look, Star, no ones dissing your family. I'm sure they're fine. The point is not that there is something wrong with your family. The point is that there are other kinds of families that are also doing a good job, and you don't know anything about them. Would you like to learn?

 

[Autodidact]

Great post Starfish. My family is set up the same way, and has been for generations. Me and my drink beer together and chill in the garage all the time. Also with my brothers we chop down trees with chainsaws and chop wood to keep our house warm, just work around the house in general, while my mom cooks, cleans, and does laundary, and always has good advice to give. I wouldn't trade in my dad for twenty moms, or my mom for twenty dads. It's the perfect balance. My girlfriend recently moved in, and she makes an excellent team with my mother, it's an amazing feeling.

But as far as arguing with the lesbians and gays, you're wasting your time and breath, trust me, it's a mission impossible. Our experience and opinion is irrelevent on this subject, lol.

You mean you do have experience with gay and lesbian families? Please tell us about it.

btw, I think if you had a son who did not enjoy these things, but who liked collecting stamps, fashion and playing the violin, he might not enjoy growing up in your kind of family.

 

[zookeeper]

My views come from my religious belief that the roles of mother and father are sacred and not interchangeable. My friendships and associations with homosexual men or women have not changed my moral beliefs. But I hold those friendships dear. Its a difficult debate since my stand comes from my christian religion, and there is little common ground in this thread. But I stand by what I say as do you all. Good luck and God speed!!

 

[Francine]

Whatever else you might think about gay and lesbian parents, we don't come to it by accident. Every child in a a gay or lesbian family is a wanted child. And that makes a huge difference.

This post makes your whole case, Dearheart. Frubalicious!