Gay and Atheist?

[Francine]

Well, you may be right, but I can't remember ever having chosen to believe in God any more than I can remember having chosen my sexual orientation (which is heterosexual, in case you hadn't figured that out).

Hypothetical question. If you caught yourself daydreaming over the girls a lot when you were eleven and ignoring all the boys, and this funny thing never changed when you grew up, would you still be in the CoJCoLDS?

 

[Katzpur]

Hypothetical question. If you caught yourself daydreaming over the girls a lot when you were eleven and ignoring all the boys, and this funny thing never changed when you grew up, would you still be in the CoJCoLDS?

I honestly don't know. Probably not. I would probably not consider myself a Christian at all anymore. I know I would still believe in God. As I've already said, there is nothing that could change that, but my understanding of Him would probably be pretty different than it is now.

 

[Francine]

I honestly don't know. Probably not. I would probably not consider myself a Christian at all anymore. I know I would still believe in God. As I've already said, there is nothing that could change that, but my understanding of Him would probably be pretty different than it is now.

Okay, gays and lesbians know we do not choose to be this way, as surely as heteros did not choose to be the way they are, or lefthanders choose to be that way. It's just a brain wiring issue. But in order to maintain that homosexuality is a personal sin, and lay it to the account of the sinner, the party line of many religions is that it is purely a choice. They say gays and lesbians willfully choose to date members of the same gender despite every signal of discouragement from their family, church, and society at large. The denominations that persist in doing so drive away gays and lesbians, and the denominations that embrace people for who they are such as the Episcopal Church or Unitarian Universalism attract them. If they believe the denomination is true as far as teaching the essential plan of salvation, they might remain in the assembly under cover, but they must struggle with this because they feel like they don't truly belong there. And the remainder simply discard belief altogether. It may be the case that God allows homosexuality partly to test how his alleged followers treat them.

 

[kai]

A lot of people are quite candid about their sexual orientation.

more than their atheism i think

 

[Katzpur]

Okay, gays and lesbians know we do not choose to be this way, as surely as heteros did not choose to be the way they are, or lefthanders choose to be that way. It's just a brain wiring issue.

I agree.

But in order to maintain that homosexuality is a personal sin, and lay it to the account of the sinner, the party line of many religions is that it is purely a choice.

I'm sure that's the case. In my religion, neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality is, in and of itself, a sin.

It may be the case that God allows homosexuality partly to test how his alleged followers treat them.

You know, I've never considered that. I think you may very, very likely be right about that.

 

[Katzpur]

more than their atheism i think

Probably so.

 

[PureX]

So it does sound like a cause and effect kind of thing. You (God) don't like my choice of sexual partners, so I'm not going to believe in you anymore. Is that right? I can understand why it could be difficult for someone to be homosexual, sexually active, and a devout Christian. That makes perfect sense to me. What I don't get is the relationship between sexual orientation and lack of belief in God.

It becomes a lot clearer when you realize that atheism as a position is a REACTION to theism. Atheism is not a proposition one arrives at of it's own accord. It's a proposition one arrives at in response to the proposal of deity. For example, one would not of their own accord arrive at the philosophical proposition that there are no giant space amebas living on Mars, because we don't base our ideas on a negative truth claim, or on non-existing conditions and evidence. One would only arrive at such a position in opposition to the proposal that giant space amebas do live on Mars.

So it makes sense that if one decides to reject religion based on it's false perceptions of homosexuality, they would also reject the religious proposal of a deity based on the likelihood of that being a false perception as well.

 

[ChristineES]

I haven't responded in this thread because I don't think I am qualified-- I am neither atheist nor gay. I haven't even decided if homosexuality is a choice or something people are born with yet. On things I am ignorant on, I usually just don't respond.

I am not even sure why I am posting this, I just felt a need to.

 

[robtex]

So Katz, you started this thread to discover an issue or explore an issue. So far, do you feel you are getting the information you were seeking? Do you have any homosexual friends in your hometown you interact with? I ask because my perception of how homosexuals are think or live is heavily impacted by the fact I have a dozen plus gay and lesbian friends who are comfortable talking about their sexual identity with me. I kinda want to know where you are coming from when you ask the questions you ask.

 

[Katzpur]

So Katz, you started this thread to discover an issue or explore an issue. So far, do you feel you are getting the information you were seeking?

Well a couple of people made comments I would like to explore further, but they must have lost interest in the thread because they have not been back to answer my questions. I am thinking of these two quotes:

Molly Ivins said that all Southern liberals start with race: once you realize they're lying to you about race, you start to question everything. I think a similar process leads a lot of homosexuals to atheism: once you realize they're lying to you about sexuality, you start to question everything.

I don't think it's as defiant and spiteful as all that. Being bisexual, and having my best friend come out as a lesbian in HS caused me to question and ultimately reject Christianity, but I didn't stop believing in God. I just couldn't believe that any loving God would send one of the most sweet, caring, special women I've ever known to hell for loving another woman. It's LOVE. I couldn't see a loving God punishing someone for love, and so it seemed to me that any religion that thought homosexuality was a sin had to be wrong; I knew this in my heart. It wasn't until years later that I began to question the very existance of god at all, and by that point it had nothing to do with homosexuality.

Both of these comments were interesting to me because they both mentioned a process by which believers become unbelievers. And that's something I'd like to explore further, even though it is not exactly what the OP started out by asking. At the other end of the spectrum, there is this quote:

Homosexuals not believing in God seems pretty straightforward to me. If someone tells you your entire life that this powerful person will hate you if you are a certain way, and you discover you are that way, would it not make sense for you to lose interest in the powerful person everyone warned you about? Even if the people telling you this information are wrong?

When I read that post, I felt like I'd gone back to Square One. It sounds like ShellShocked is saying that the gay atheist mindset is, "Okay, if God doesn't like me, I won't believe in Him." I don't get that. To me, it would make much more sense for the gay atheist mindset to be, "Okay, if God doesn't like me, I won't like Him either."

Do you have any homosexual friends in your hometown you interact with? I ask because my perception of how homosexuals are think or live is heavily impacted by the fact I have a dozen plus gay and lesbian friends who are comfortable talking about their sexual identity with me. I kinda want to know where you are coming from when you ask the questions you ask.

Actually, I work with a woman who is a lesbian, but I've never really gotten to know her. Most of the gay and lesbian people I know are just people I've met online. I guess I'm just trying to figure out whether atheism and theism are choices or not.

 

[Shell-Shocked]

What is the natural nest step to disliking something like god than to stop believing? If god is supposed to be all love and forgiveness, and yet the people who told you this said he hates you, why would you continue to believe them? And slowly, the doubt would spread to "if they lied about what god does, why not lie about what god is?"

 

[Katzpur]

What is the natural nest step to disliking something like god than to stop believing? If god is supposed to be all love and forgiveness, and yet the people who told you this said he hates you, why would you continue to believe them?

Of course I wouldn't. If anybody told me that God hates me, I'd think, "Well, that's stupid. How do they know how God feels about me? God doesn't hate me; He loves me. These people don't know what they're talking about, and I don't want to have anything to do with people like that any more."

And slowly, the doubt would spread to "if they lied about what god does, why not lie about what god is?"

If your understanding of what God does and what God is is based upon what someone else tells you, then your statement makes sense. My understanding of what God does and what God is is between me and God, not between me and a bunch of people who are in no better position to know than I am. Besides, we're not even really talking about what God does or what He is. We're talking about IF He is.

 

[Nanda]

Nanda, I'm wondering what led to you go from believing in God to questioning His existance to being convinced that He doesn't exist. If you don't mind, I'm really interested in how that happened.

I'm sorry, Katzpur, I'd meant to respond to you awhile ago, but I kept getting sidetracked. There's not much to tell; like most, I didn't arrive at atheism by way of any major life event, but a long, slow process of doubt, questioning, and study. As I grew older, learned more, experienced more, I became increasingly convinced that none of the world's religions had gotten it right; they all seemed more like mythologies than truth. For many, many years I was an agnostic/apatheist, because I couldn't tell you if I believed there was a god or not, and I didn't really care; it didn't affect my day to day life. It seemed to me that if there was a god, it wasn't the sort of god that spent its time punishing or helping people, either, so it didn't really matter if a god existed or not. I'm sure you can see how it isn't a very big leap from "it doesn't matter if god exists" to "god probably doesn't exist." All it took was a renewed interest in religion; not difficult considering the affect religion is having on the world in more recent years - it could no longer be ignored. In fact, my current view still incorporates the old one, in a sense. I don't believe that any god exists, and if one does, it probably isn't the personal god that religions teach, so it doesn't really matter. So, yeah, pretty dull, actually.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I have noticed that there seem to be more homosexuals who profess to be atheists than there are homosexuals who profess to be theists.

A number of prominent theists have gone out of their way to make homosexuals feel unwanted in a theistic environment. This is man drawing lines in the sand that God never intended to be drawn.

 

[Francine]

A number of prominent theists have gone out of their way to make homosexuals feel unwanted in a theistic environment. This is man drawing lines in the sand that God never intended to be drawn.

That's okay, if my family, Church, and society doesn't want me around because of the gender of my Significant Other, who I do not offer, then my family, Church, and society doesn't receive the other things I do have to offer.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm sure you can see how it isn't a very big leap from "it doesn't matter if god exists" to "god probably doesn't exist."

I see where you're coming from. And yes, I do see what you're saying. If you don't see God as being involved in the affairs of human beings, He might as well not exist. If He might as well not exist, then "probably doesn't" is the next logical step. I guess it's the fact that I see Him as involved and that you don't that is real point at which our paths split.

 

[Nanda]

I guess it's the fact that I see Him as involved and that you don't that is real point at which our paths split.

I would agree with that assessment.

 

[Shell-Shocked]

Besides, we're not even really talking about what God does or what He is. We're talking about IF He is.

I dunno, the next step on the road of doubt (to me) is "If he's not what they say he is, maybe he's nothing at all." And since no one can provide any proof except "your faith will show you the truth", but that faith is slipping... Maybe it's a more clear progression in my head than I'm explaining.

 

[Katzpur]

I dunno, the next step on the road of doubt (to me) is "If he's not what they say he is, maybe he's nothing at all." And since no one can provide any proof except "your faith will show you the truth", but that faith is slipping... Maybe it's a more clear progression in my head than I'm explaining.

Well, I'd be the first to admit that it's not always easy to explain things of such a personal nature. Your experiences are uniquely yours and if you say that this is how you came to the conclusion that God doesn't exist, I certainly don't have any reason to doubt you. You haven't mentioned whether you are gay or not (and if you don't want to, that's okay with me), but it sounds like you're denying God's existence because of what other people say about Him. I guess I just can't get my mind around why someone would do that.

 

[Tristesse]

Okay, this is not a debate. Got that? I don't care what you believe or don't believe. I don't care who you want to sleep with. I've just made an observation and would like to get your comments.

I have noticed that there seem to be more homosexuals who profess to be atheists than there are homosexuals who profess to be theists. If this is the case, do you see a cause and effect thing at work here? It strikes me that people "decide" not to believe in God when the religion they may have been raised with (I'm thinking primarily Christianity) tells them that their affection for a loved-one of the same sex is sinful. Some seem to be able to continue to believe in God, even if they no longer consider themselves to be religious, but it seems to me that most address the conflict by deciding not to believe in God at all. If you are gay or lesbian and are also an atheist, did what you may have been told about your sexual preference in church influence your decision not to believe in God? Or was the "decision" no more of a decision than your sexual orientation?

I think the problem is, a lot of devout religious people don't believe homosexuality even exists. So, some of them are homosexual, but when they participate in that kind of activity, they call it sinning. And instead of admitting that they are homosexual, they just say, "I was prey to the devils juice" or something completely absurd. If they admit homosexuals exist, they feel like their admitting that there god creates homosexuals. It's the most asinine reasoning. So, I think thats why you see more out of the closet homosexuals, the religious ones are just in the closet.