Gay and Atheist?

[FM4k]

Perhaps the "Atheism" aspect of the situation spawns from the "What happens if..." type of thought.

For example: An unintelligent person, who also happens to believe in one faith or another, has a more immediate "fear" of god than a more intelligent person, who might understand the concept of "exceptions to the rule", or perhaps could even have such insight as to understand that since there are so many concepts of god, and religion, that any such figure would be far less than concerned with just them than such would be with others... such as Al-Queda or Neo-Nazi groups.

 

[Alceste]

See that makes total sense to me, but the idea that God doesn't exist because such and such religion says your love is bad doesn't necessarily follow to me. I'm thinking in terms of how being lesbian (if, in fact, I were a lesbian) would affect my belief in God. I would probably just come to one of the following conclusions:

1. God hates me. He hates the fact that I love another woman and He will punish me forever for loving her. I have been warned and have no excuse.

2. God loves me and approves of my relationship. All of those crazy religious people who think He doesn't are just full of crap.

In either case, I can't imagine coming to the conclusion that God doesn't exist. Maybe I'm the one who's full of crap. Maybe I'm seeing things differently from the way they really are. It just seems to me from my own observations that there are more gays and lesbians who are gay than there are who are straight. Then again, maybe it's just this forum.

Hi, Katz, you're starting off with the assumption that the default / normal / natural state to begin with is belief in God, from which point you're attempting to figure out what role being gay might have in becoming an atheist. How does it affect the picture to consider that people are born without religious belief, and that if they are not aggressively indoctrinated into a particular religion, it's anybody's guess what kind of spiritual beliefs they will end up with?

I'm only a little bit gay, myself, but I've never believed in any god/s. I did go to a church as a kid, but it was the United Church - even the national head of this church at one point said he didn't think the resurrection story was literally true.

From a rough sampling of my gay and bi friends, although I'm not clear on the beliefs of a few of them, one is a witch, one is a new age shaman kind of thingy, and one is a member of a First Nations spiritual community. I'm a taoist shaman kind of thingy, myself. I don't know how much of a factor religion was in the childhood of my friends, except that the new age shaman thingy woman's parents were crazy fundamentalists, and she had nothing nice to say about her childhood.

It seems to me to be a general rule that lesbian women are not likely to be attracted to any Judeo-Christian tradition on account of the fact they're inherently misogynistic, and lesbians tend to be feminists. IMO, this (feminism) is a more significant factor than who they happen to fall in love with. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but there are no holy women in Judeo-Christian traditions. No goddesses, no priestesses (well there are, but it's translated in the Bible as "prostitutes"), no prophetesses, and women are always getting stoned to death, being called "unclean" for menstruating, and being forbidden to speak in church.

People don't lose their spiritual inclinations on account of who they happen to fall in love with, but if a person happens to fall in love with someone of her own sex, most people will go with love and leave the church that tells them love is wrong in certain circumstances. However, they take their spirituality with them. Abandoning one particular anti-gay religion opens the door to others that are not anti-gay. There are more gay pagans, buddhists, wiccans and deists on here than gay atheists, IMO. In fact, I think Auto is the only gay self-professed atheist.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi, Katz, you're starting off with the assumption that the default / normal / natural state to begin with is belief in God, from which point you're attempting to figure out what role being gay might have in becoming an atheist.

Actually, I was just thinking in terms of Christians who became atheists after acknowledging that they were gay. I didn't mean to imply that it is either "normal or natural" to believe in God and "abnormal or unnatural" not to believe in Him. I hope I didn't mislead too many people on that account.

People don't lose their spiritual inclinations on account of who they happen to fall in love with, but if a person happens to fall in love with someone of her own sex, most people will go with love and leave the church that tells them love is wrong in certain circumstances. However, they take their spirituality with them.

That's what I would have expected, but not what I've seen.

 

[Alceste]

me: People don't lose their spiritual inclinations on account of who they happen to fall in love with, but if a person happens to fall in love with someone of her own sex, most people will go with love and leave the church that tells them love is wrong in certain circumstances. However, they take their spirituality with them.

Katz: That's what I would have expected, but not what I've seen.

Can you be more specific? What have you seen that would suggest to you that people lose their own inherent spiritual characteristics by leaving a religion, or changing religions?

Maybe we're not on the same page because I think belief in a personal god is something that satisfies the same natural inclination as other spiritual practices that have little or nothing to do with god-belief (paganism, buddhism, taoism, zen) . So to me, the division between theist and atheist is an illusion. If there really is a difference, in my view it is insignificant. Everybody finds a way to express and nurture the part of themselves that, for you, belongs to God, even if it is expressed and nurtured through a non-theistic passion for nature and science.

My friends and I had a choice of how to nurture and express our spiritual inclinations. As do we all. None of us chose Christianity, not because of some personal grudge against the Christian God, but because of the attitude and behavior of the people who believe in that God.

The main concern for myself and my friends, when we were hashing out what our spiritual paths were going to be, was whether a philosophy or spirituality was sex-positive and woman-positive. (Sex-positive is pretty much interchangeable with gay-positive, but covers a lot more territory). So I'm sorry to say, none of the Abrahamic religions were ever serious contenders for us, even those of us who grew up going to a Christian church. It's not a very convincing story to begin with, there's no women in it, and the people who believe in it are sexually repressed.

IMO, sexual repression is the root of the homophobia of abrahamic religions - that's pretty obvious to anyone who is not sexually repressed.

Jeez, I'm writing a novel here, but the point I'm trying to make is that it is your religion that homosexuals tend to reject. Not your god - to whatever extent you believe your god actually exists. They reject Abrahamic religions and embrace other paths instead, some of which involve other gods or goddesses (or both). It's not like abandoning a particular religious community leaves some kind of gaping hole that can never be filled.

Also, as someone pointed out before, since monotheists tend to be sexually repressed, you're not going to see them openly discussing their gay yearnings on the internet with other religious people, especially considering the abuse that is heaped upon them by some of their fellow Christians when they do. You're much more likely to find gay Christians marrying people of the opposite sex and living a lie until they get caught in an airport restroom trying to pick up an undercover policeman. Even then they will insist they're not gay. So there are other reasons it might appear that there are more gay atheists than Christians on the forum.

 

[Katzpur]

Can you be more specific? What have you seen that would suggest to you that people lose their own inherent spiritual characteristics by leaving a religion, or changing religions?

Maybe we're not on the same page because I think belief in a personal god is something that satisfies the same natural inclination as other spiritual practices that have little or nothing to do with god-belief (paganism, buddhism, taoism, zen) .

I don't know if we're on the same page or not. What I had tried to say in my earlier posts was that I had noticed that so many gays and lesbians who had once been Christians seem to have rejected not only Christianity but a belief in God. That's something that doesn't make sense to me. I can understand why they would reject religions that tried to tell them they were destined to an eternity of suffering due to their attraction to individuals of the same sex, but I can't understand why this would lead them to reject the concept of a Higher Power. But I probably was not thinking in terms of any Higher Power other than the only one I can personally relate to, and that's probably what you're pointing out. If it is, I'd say that's a good point. I can conceivably understand why someone who had at one time devoutly believed in the Abrahamic God might ultimately decide, "I can't believe in a God who hates the fact that I love somebody He doesn't want me to love. Such a being can't exist. Therefore, maybe the Higher Power I have always believed in simply needs to be redefined." Then, as they search for a spiritual path that includes a Higher Power who approves of their homosexuality, they end up believing in some other god than the Abrahamic God. Maybe those who reject the idea of any kind of a Higher Power really weren't spiritual from the get go.

So I'm sorry to say, none of the Abrahamic religions were ever serious contenders for us, even those of us who grew up going to a Christian church. It's not a very convincing story to begin with, there's no women in it, and the people who believe in it are sexually repressed.

Well, I've got to say that I don't believe everybody who believes in an Abrahamic religion is sexually repressed, but if you do, maybe it's a matter of how we're defining our terms.

 

[Alceste]

I probably was not thinking in terms of any Higher Power other than the only one I can personally relate to, and that's probably what you're pointing out. If it is, I'd say that's a good point. I can conceivably understand why someone who had at one time devoutly believed in the Abrahamic God might ultimately decide, "I can't believe in a God who hates the fact that I love somebody He doesn't want me to love. Such a being can't exist. Therefore, maybe the Higher Power I have always believed in simply needs to be redefined." Then, as they search for a spiritual path that includes a Higher Power who approves of their homosexuality, they end up believing in some other god than the Abrahamic God. Maybe those who reject the idea of any kind of a Higher Power really weren't spiritual from the get go.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Well grokked! You did a better job than me in expressing it.

Here's a supporting anecdote. During this time I went through a stretch of bad luck, and commented to my wiccan friend that I felt like I was being tested. She rolled her eyes and said "If your god tests you, get a new god". It was a pretty brief exchange, but I mulled it over afterward and concluded it was a very wise thing to say. It hadn't occurred to me before that you could choose a god. I grew up in Alberta - the Texas of the North - where you're a Christian or you're nothing. So I thought there was just one god and you either believed in him or you didn't. She opened my eyes to the fact there's a whole pantheon of gods and goddesses to choose from.

I would add that it's not exactly a "search for a higher power that approves of homosexuality" though. It's a rethinking of the source, purpose, meaning and value of the whole concept of a higher power, and a browsing through all the options. Homosexuality may or may not be a significant factor in this process, although sexuality in general usually is.

Well, I've got to say that I don't believe everybody who believes in an Abrahamic religion is sexually repressed, but if you do, maybe it's a matter of how we're defining our terms.

Well, if you're cool with the occasional three-way, and enjoy a random half-anonymous hook-up, and think it's quite healthy, then you're not sexually repressed.

 

[Katzpur]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Well grokked! You did a better job than me in expressing it.

Well, thank you, but it was what you said that made me look at my premise from a different perspective.

So I thought there was just one god and you either believed in him or you didn't.

See that's an interesting thing for you to say. I grew up in Salt Lake City where, of course, the vast majority of the population was LDS. (Today, the population of Salt Lake City is roughly 50% - 50%, but we're talking a lot of years ago. ). I remember taking a religion class in high school (it was actually an LDS Seminary class, but I won't take the time to explain what that is) and the teacher showed us a pie chart depicting the various world's religions and how many adherents each had. Well, I knew that there were a lot of religions besides my own, and a lot of religions outside of Christianity so the pie chart didn't really surprise me all that much. One thing that did surprise me, though, was how few of the Christians were LDS. I mean, my faith was represented by no more than a thin line on the chart. It wasn't a "piece" of the pie. It was more like a crumb. I'd grown up where more than 50% of the people I knew believed as I did and where 99.99% of them were Christian, if not LDS. I had one Jewish friend in school. We were really good friends. Other than that, they were all LDS or other Christians. It was seriously not until I was well into adulthood that I realized that there were actually Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus who lived in the United States! I know... that's incredibly naive of me, but I just assumed that all Muslims lived in the Middle East, all Buddhists lived in Asia and all Hindus lived in India. As far as pagans and Wiccans were concerned, as far as I knew, they existed somewhere or other. I never actually thought I'd ever actually have a conversation with one. Even today, I'm so surrounded by people who believe in the Abrahamic God, that I often don't stop to realize how many people don't!

Well, if you're cool with the occasional three-way, and enjoy a random half-anonymous hook-up, and think it's quite healthy, then you're not sexually repressed.

Oh! I think I'm sexually repressed. Really, really, really sexually repressed.

 

[Alceste]

It was seriously not until I was well into adulthood that I realized that there were actually Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus who lived in the United States! I know... that's incredibly naive of me, but I just assumed that all Muslims lived in the Middle East, all Buddhists lived in Asia and all Hindus lived in India.

Don't sweat it - everybody starts out naive.

As far as pagans and Wiccans were concerned, as far as I knew, they existed somewhere or other. I never actually thought I'd ever actually have a conversation with one. Even today, I'm so surrounded by people who believe in the Abrahamic God, that I often don't stop to realize how many people don't!

Likewise, I often don't realize how many people do believe in Yahweh, since only one of my close friends is a Christian. Some of my family might write "Christian" on a census, but they don't go to church. My cousin got married in a brewery. 'Nuff said. My friends are Buddhists, pagans, wiccans, atheists, Taoists - or a combination of things. Or they are their own thing, with elements of other things thrown into the mix. (I've got images of Sarasvati, Buddha, Pan and Guan Yin around the house, and a whole lot of earth mothers, most of which I made).

With all this diversity around me, it seems to me that if there is a higher power, whatever lessons it has to teach are tailored to fit the student. There's no feeling that any one of my friends or family is any more or less spiritually satisfied than the next, regardless of what they practice or believe. (Granted, my Christian friend has issues - that's probably why she's friends with somebody like me to begin with ).

Oh! I think I'm sexually repressed. Really, really, really sexually repressed.

I reconsidered this after I posted - a lack of threeways and random hookups doesn't necessarily indicate sexual repression, since that's not everybody's thing. It's more to do with whether one feels it's healthy, enjoyable and normal to act on whatever does turn them on, provided it's consenting and nobody gets injured. (Hope that's not to racy).

 

[Katzpur]

I reconsidered this after I posted - a lack of threeways and random hookups doesn't necessarily indicate sexual repression, since that's not everybody's thing.

I kind of figured you were just trying to make a point. I didn't actually take you all that seriously.

It's more to do with whether one feels it's healthy, enjoyable and normal to act on whatever does turn them on, provided it's consenting and nobody gets injured. (Hope that's not to racy).

Well, I don't think there are all that many sexually repressed Christians if that's how you are going to define the term. It's really more of an issue of what people would consider "healthy" and "normal." And for most Christians, the issue of fidelity is -- or at least ought to be -- part of the equation. But, we're getting off topic, aren't we?

 

[Alceste]

I kind of figured you were just trying to make a point. I didn't actually take you all that seriously.

Well, I don't think there are all that many sexually repressed Christians if that's how you are going to define the term. It's really more of an issue of what people would consider "healthy" and "normal." And for most Christians, the issue of fidelity is -- or at least ought to be -- part of the equation. But, we're getting off topic, aren't we?

We are getting off topic, but I'd say that some of the Christian men I've known didn't seem too bothered about fidelity, but they certainly were repressed - it manifested as emotional distance and hostility where in ordinary, non-repressed circumstances there is usually snuggling and pleasant conversation. On one memorable occasion I was told I was a servant of Satan sent to tempt him from the path of righteousness.:biglaugh:

He put me off dating Christians for life. No offense to your good self. I never tried dating a Christian woman - might be a totally different experience.

Now, back to gay atheists!

 

[Alceste]

BTW, Smoke mentioned it baffles him that homosexuals would stay with the Catholic church - I have a theory about that. I think it's because Catholics can sin, confess, be forgiven and return to a state of grace. I think that cycle could probably be quite habit-forming. There's all kinds of things God wants you to abstain from, enjoyable sex being right at the top of the list, but since God loves you and already knows you will fail, you'll be forgiven as long as you spill your guts to one of his ostensibly celibate servants. (Hehe, one has to wonder if it wasn't celibate priests who came up with the whole "confession" scheme to begin with, but I digress).

So you get the best of both worlds. You don't have to leave the church, because everybody has fallen short of God's expectations. You're expected to fall short, so that you can have something to be forgiven for.

It's a lovely narrative, actually. I can see the appeal.

 

[Katzpur]

BTW, Smoke mentioned it baffles him that homosexuals would stay with the Catholic church - I have a theory about that. I think it's because Catholics can sin, confess, be forgiven and return to a state of grace. I think that cycle could probably be quite habit-forming. There's all kinds of things God wants you to abstain from, enjoyable sex being right at the top of the list, but since God loves you and already knows you will fail, you'll be forgiven as long as you spill your guts to one of his ostensibly celibate servants. (Hehe, one has to wonder if it wasn't celibate priests who came up with the whole "confession" scheme to begin with, but I digress).

So you get the best of both worlds. You don't have to leave the church, because everybody has fallen short of God's expectations. You're expected to fall short, so that you can have something to be forgiven for.

It's a lovely narrative, actually. I can see the appeal.

Well, my son was engaged to a beautiful Catholic girl for a very long time. She just barely broke off the engagement (after they'd sent out the wedding invitations, no less). Anyway, they were living together. She tried pretty hard to convert my son to Catholicism but he didn't want any part of it (he didn't want any part of Mormonism either, or he wouldn't have been living with her). Anyway, he was talking to me about it one day and he said, "Mom, it's crazy. According to her church, we're living in sin. But all she has to do is every so often, just go and confess, say some prayers and she's forgiven. But then we just go right back to what we were doing before. She knows when she confesses that that's what we're going to do. At least in the Mormon Church, if you repent, you're expected to stop doing what you're repenting of."

 

[Katzpur]

I never tried dating a Christian woman - might be a totally different experience.

You know, I really can't say. Just don't have any experience in that area!

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

"Mom, it's crazy. According to her church, we're living in sin. But all she has to do is every so often, just go and confess, say some prayers and she's forgiven. But then we just go right back to what we were doing before. She knows when she confesses that that's what we're going to do. At least in the Mormon Church, if you repent, you're expected to stop doing what you're repenting of."

Then this woman is not properly informed. The resolve "to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin" is essential to a valid confession. Just because the priest has given absolution does not mean that the penitent has been absolved- it is conditional upon his inner state. If one truly intends to continue in the same sin they have confessed, absolution did not happen.

Technically speaking, your son's fiance (while she was 'living in sin') should not have been receiving communion until the situation was resolved.

In other words, one has to truly mean the Act of Contrition:

O MY GOD, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen.

 

[Katzpur]

Then this woman is not properly informed.

I realize that, Jordan. It seems so obvious to me, and she was an intelligent young woman. It's beyond me how she could be so oblivious to something so obvious as the concept of true repentance.

Technically speaking, your son's fiance (while she was 'living in sin') should not have been receiving communion until the situation was resolved.

Well, she'd confess each time she wanted to receive communion and she apparently felt that was all that was necessary. But if they were living together, she had to know that they were going to be having sexual relations again. It just doesn't make sense to me.

At any rate, the wedding is off. I absolutely adored her. Obviously I would have been happier had my son been engaged to an LDS girl, but he hasn't considered himself LDS in almost twelve years. I am truly heartbroken that the wedding was called off, but maybe they just weren't right for each other. I actually do know that her way of looking at the situation was flawed and that the Catholic Church would not condone this kind of rationalization on her part.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

It's true. I think, at the very least, the presence of consistent penance in the sacrament [even with the kind of rationalizations mentioned] keeps us aware of both the presence of sin in our lives and God's redeeming power- we are never totally "in the clear", as with the Once-Saved-Always Saved crowd.

Sorry to hear that the wedding fell through. That's always very painful and full of conflicting emotions. I'll keep you all in my prayers.

 

[Alceste]

It's true. I think, at the very least, the presence of consistent penance in the sacrament [even with the kind of rationalizations mentioned] keeps us aware of both the presence of sin in our lives and God's redeeming power- we are never totally "in the clear", as with the Once-Saved-Always Saved crowd.

I think that makes a big difference. I'm not a big fan of guilt, myself, but when it comes to dealing with the religious concept of sin I prefer the Catholic take on the issue to the Fundamentalist take, in that Catholics appear to take personal responsibility for their "sins", whereas for Fundamentalists it seems their own sins are always somebody else's fault. Homosexuality, Satan, liberals, sex on TV, rock music... If a fundamentalist has the hots for George Michael, it's George Michael's fault and he should be punished. If a Catholic has the hots for George Michael, he goes to a therapist (in a manner of speaking), talks his way through it, repents, and is forgiven.

 

[Alceste]

Well, my son was engaged to a beautiful Catholic girl for a very long time. She just barely broke off the engagement (after they'd sent out the wedding invitations, no less). Anyway, they were living together. She tried pretty hard to convert my son to Catholicism but he didn't want any part of it (he didn't want any part of Mormonism either, or he wouldn't have been living with her). Anyway, he was talking to me about it one day and he said, "Mom, it's crazy. According to her church, we're living in sin. But all she has to do is every so often, just go and confess, say some prayers and she's forgiven. But then we just go right back to what we were doing before. She knows when she confesses that that's what we're going to do. At least in the Mormon Church, if you repent, you're expected to stop doing what you're repenting of."

Sorry to hear about that, Katz. I broke off an engagement myself once. Unpleasant business all around, but it was for the best in the end. He's a happy father now with a girl who is so well suited to him he was with her the whole time we were engaged. (Catholics! Sheesh!) And I'm with Wampus, who rocks.

 

[keithnurse]

There is an organization called "Gay and Lesbian Atheists and Humanists"
www.galah.org They have three chapters in the US, in San Francisco,and two other cities.

 

[Meow Mix]

Okay, this is not a debate. Got that? I don't care what you believe or don't believe. I don't care who you want to sleep with. I've just made an observation and would like to get your comments.

I have noticed that there seem to be more homosexuals who profess to be atheists than there are homosexuals who profess to be theists. If this is the case, do you see a cause and effect thing at work here? It strikes me that people "decide" not to believe in God when the religion they may have been raised with (I'm thinking primarily Christianity) tells them that their affection for a loved-one of the same sex is sinful. Some seem to be able to continue to believe in God, even if they no longer consider themselves to be religious, but it seems to me that most address the conflict by deciding not to believe in God at all. If you are gay or lesbian and are also an atheist, did what you may have been told about your sexual preference in church influence your decision not to believe in God? Or was the "decision" no more of a decision than your sexual orientation?

I'm a lesbian who grew up in a Christian setting, though I can honestly say that I was on my way to secularism long before I even figured out what my feelings towards women meant.

The actual reason for dropping religion was simply that as I learned more about science and philosophy I started to discover how truly indefensible (and in retrospect, ridiculous) my beliefs at the time were.

I'm sure there are a lot of people, though, who do have some kind of struggle between their religious and sexual inclination. I can only hope that their loyalty to bronze age mythology doesn't prevent them from persuing happiness with a person whom they can love.