Gay parenthood

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, some gays and lesbians are rather immature and seem to base their sexuality around dislike for the opposite sex's genitals. So some gay men find female genitals to be "disgusting" and some lesbians find male genitals to be "disgusting". This is often tied into transphobia, too. Those people aren't worth the time of day, really.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

I really don't know how all straight people are, as I'm not.

And it isn't about being a Catholic follower so much as it's being culturally and traditionally Catholic but not necessarily believing in the whole kit and kaboodle. Not that you'd admit it easily but it's a general trend towards secularization. Italy has it, and has had it for a while. American Catholics tend to be more openly "cafeteria" about their beliefs IME where they will say "i believe, but the church is wrong about X"

The problem with most of these people is they seem not have actually taken the time to learn the teachings and philosophy of the Church. They seem to just have inherited mores about sexuality and behaviour from the contemporary cultural zeitgeist and applied these to Church teachings they only seem to know in passing.

When was the last time such cafeteria Catholics actually seriously addressed the writings of the Fathers or the Angelic Doctor on Natural Law teaching of these issues?

 

[columbus]

What I meant is that, unfortunately, some gay men (a small percentage) are misogynists.
Two gay parents are supposed to talk to their10 year old son about women. And they are supposed to tell him that women are wonderful creatures, who deserve respect, blah blah.
But if the gay parent in question is a misogynist, it is unavoidable that he will talk about women negatively. Or sometimes...in a moment of anger, he may call women names.

what if the kid in question grows up thinking that women are wicked?

In my experience, your concern is extremely misplaced. Most gay guys like women as people, they just don't want sex with them. In particular, the ones with any interest in being parents tend to see women as delightful human beings generally.

It's the straight guys who often see females as incomprehensible aliens to be tolerated in exchange for sex, domestic chores, and maybe a second income. They often don't really see them as people, and their sons often learn the attitude from them. Most straight guys aren't like that, but there are more straight male misogynists than there are gay guys.

Tom

 

[dgirl1986]

In my experience, your concern is extremely misplaced. Most gay guys like women as people, they just don't want sex with them. In particular, the ones with any interest in being parents tend to see women as delightful human beings generally.

It's the straight guys who often see females as incomprehensible aliens to be tolerated in exchange for sex, domestic chores, and maybe a second income. They often don't really see them as people, and their sons often learn the attitude from them. Most straight guys aren't like that, but there are more straight male misogynists than there are gay guys.

Tom

Didnt an american politican refer to women as penis holes?

 

[Viker]

Didnt an american politican refer to women as penis holes?

It was an evangelical pastor. And he referred to women as 'penis homes'. Pastor Mark Driscoll Calls Women 'Penis Homes'; His Megachurch Begins Closing Branches

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It was an evangelical pastor. And he referred to women as 'penis homes'. Pastor Mark Driscoll Calls Women 'Penis Homes'; His Megachurch Begins Closing Branches

 

[Viker]

Around here we call his kind of church Six Flags Under Jesus or Christ Malls and people think we're too harsh.

 

[dgirl1986]

It was an evangelical pastor. And he referred to women as 'penis homes'. Pastor Mark Driscoll Calls Women 'Penis Homes'; His Megachurch Begins Closing Branches

What a *beep* *beep* *beep*

 

[Viker]

Homo/transphobia are inseparable from misogyny. They make a nice couple.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

It was an evangelical pastor. And he referred to women as 'penis homes'. Pastor Mark Driscoll Calls Women 'Penis Homes'; His Megachurch Begins Closing Branches

That article doesn't actually seem that offensive. He seems to have been referring simply to the idea that the male and female sexual organs are meant for each other. He expresses it somewhat inarticulately and strangely - he is no Edward Feser - but the difference in essence between what he saying and classical natural law on the issue is hard to see.

What he said would ipso facto be true for women as well, if it is true for men.

This just seems to be the case of those looking for offence.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That article doesn't actually seem that offensive. He seems to have been referring simply to the idea that the male and female sexual organs are meant for each other. He expresses it somewhat inarticulately and strangely - he is no Edward Feser - but the difference in essence between what he saying and classical natural law on the issue is hard to see.

What he said would ipso facto be true for women as well, if it is true for men.

This just seems to be the case of those looking for offence.

He is saying much more than that, which is faulty enough on its own. He is saying that the man's penis is "on loan" from God (even calling it "His penis") and that God created women to be submissive to men and to fulfill their sexual needs. Of course he threw in anti-masturbation and homophobic sentiments, too.

 

[Viker]

That article doesn't actually seem that offensive. He seems to have been referring simply to the idea that the male and female sexual organs are meant for each other. He expresses it somewhat inarticulately and strangely - he is no Edward Feser - but the difference in essence between what he saying and classical natural law on the issue is hard to see.

What he said would ipso facto be true for women as well, if it is true for men.

This just seems to be the case of those looking for offence.

You'd have no problem with a feminist referring to you or your penis as a 'vagina rack'?

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

In my experience, your concern is extremely misplaced. Most gay guys like women as people, they just don't want sex with them. In particular, the ones with any interest in being parents tend to see women as delightful human beings generally.

It's the straight guys who often see females as incomprehensible aliens to be tolerated in exchange for sex, domestic chores, and maybe a second income. They often don't really see them as people, and their sons often learn the attitude from them. Most straight guys aren't like that, but there are more straight male misogynists than there are gay guys.

Tom

I think women are just as capable of analogous behaviour and attitudes towards men. In fact, I have found that men and women are more likely to put down the male sex than the female, in general, explicitly at least.

The difference is the context and consequences given to the sentiment. If a man has bad experiences with women, and decides he doesn't much like them, then he is a bitter, twisted misogynists who is part of the patriachical edifice that oppresses women. If a woman has bad experiences with men, and decides all men are pigs, she is not considered a bitter, twisted misanderist, in general. She is somewhat pitied, when she is not sympathised with.

 

[Viker]

He is saying much more than that, which is faulty enough on its own. He is saying that the man's penis is "on loan" from God (even calling it "His penis") and that God created women to be submissive to men and to fulfill their sexual needs. Of course he threw in anti-masturbation and homophobic sentiments, too.

Exactly.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

You'd have no problem with a feminist referring to you or your penis as a 'vagina rack'?

Well, the context is important. It is clear from his context that he wasn't talking like some playboy who treats women simply as a sexual target. He was referring to the idea men and women, and their sexual organs, are made for each other.

 

[dgirl1986]

He is saying much more than that, which is faulty enough on its own. He is saying that the man's penis is "on loan" from God (even calling it "His penis") and that God created women to be submissive to men and to fulfill their sexual needs. Of course he threw in anti-masturbation and homophobic sentiments, too.

I for one do not need a man to to fulfil those needs. I would rather be celibate than have sex with men

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

He is saying much more than that, which is faulty enough on its own. He is saying that the man's penis is "on loan" from God (even calling it "His penis") and that God created women to be submissive to men and to fulfill their sexual needs. Of course he threw in anti-masturbation and homophobic sentiments, too.

Well, no doubt his defence of it is faulty, but I will wait for your detailed refutation of classical natural law teaching before I decide the whole doctrine is faulty.

Don't all Christians believe all they are is, in a sense, on loan from God? Don't they believe that men and women are created to fulfil each other's sexual needs? Of course, they are created for much, much more. But that men and women were made for each other, romantically and sexually, is a basic part of all traditional Christian viewpoints.

 

[Viker]

I for one do not need a man to to fulfil those needs. I would rather be celibate than have sex with men

Some men are wonderful. I often prefer the company of a woman. But men can be fine.

 

[dgirl1986]

Some men are wonderful. I often prefer the company of a woman. But men can be fine.

Well when you are a lesbian...you may enjoy the company of men but you certainly do not want sex with them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

More from Driscoll:

"During the sermon, which was entitled “Sex, a Study of the Good Bits from Song of Solomon,” Driscoll interpreted Song of Solomon 2:3 as referring to oral sex and then said, “Men, I am glad to report to you that oral sex is biblical…The wife performing oral sex on the husband is biblical. God’s men said, Amen. Ladies, your husbands appreciate oral sex. They do. So, serve them, love them well. It’s biblical. Right here. We have a verse. ‘The fruit of her husband is sweet to her taste and she delights to be beneath him.'”
...

"[In recounting the story about the man who started coming to Driscoll’s church because his wife began performing oral sex:]

She [the wife] says, “I’ve never performed oral sex on my husband. I’ve refused to.” I said, “You need to go home and tell your husband that you’ve met Jesus and you’ve been studying the Bible, and that you’re convicted of a terrible sin in your life. And then you need to drop his trousers, and you need to serve your husband. And when he asks why, say, ‘Because I’m a repentant woman. God has changed my heart and I’m supposed to be a biblical wife.'” She says, “Really?” I said, “Yeah. First Peter 3 says if your husband is an unbeliever to serve him with deeds of kindness.” [Laughter from audience] How many men would agree, that is a deed of kindness. He doesn’t want tracts. Those won’t do anything. What we’re talking about here could really help."

...

"It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either."

» Mark Driscoll Slammed by Baptist Press over Sex Teaching Bartholomew’s Notes on Religion

"In Mars Hill theology, female members are viewed through the lens of complementarianism, a theological position that prescribes separate roles for women and men including male headship. A woman being advised to get down on her knees and give her husband a blow job represents just one of a spectrum of submissive behaviors touted for females, who are encouraged to find their meaning in the traditional roles of wife and mother. The virginity of women is prized, and by some reports Driscoll’s late discovery and fury that his wife had sex with another male as a teenager became bizarrely significant in their relationship and in the life of the church even though he himself was not a virgin when he married."
Christian right mega-church minister faces mega-mutiny for alleged abusive behavior - Salon.com

So a "good Christian wife" is basically supposed to be a submissive sexual servant that is always available for her husband's "needs". Notice he doesn't cherry pick and twist Bible verses to find a command for husbands to give oral to their wives. Oh, I wonder why that is.

He also blames wives for their husband's cheating.